Pope Benedict’s speech: Reading & reactions
Taken from the Vatican’s website, this is the bit in Pope Benedict’s speech -mentioning Islam- at the Aula Magna of the University of Regensburg
Tuesday, 12 September 2006:
“…I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur’an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between - as they were called - three “Laws” or “rules of life”: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur’an. It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point - itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole - which, in the context of the issue of “faith and reason”, I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.”
“In the seventh conversation (διάλεξις - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: “There is no compulsion in religion”. According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur’an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the “Book” and the “infidels”, he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which leaves us astounded, on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”. The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. “God”, he says, “is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (σὺν λόγω) is contrary to God’s nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death…”.
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God’s nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazm went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God’s will, we would even have to practise idolatry.”
I landed upon an interesting blog, called “Thinking Blog”, whose author wrote about the Pope’s speech, and here’s what he said:
“When someone is in a position of power; their words, deeds, speeches, and public addresses are under continuous and immense scrutiny equally by those who follow them and those who don’t. The Pope is no exception, especially when we consider that any thing said by the Pontiff is considered doctrine by millions of Catholics around the world given its ex cathedra nature.
Let me first start by saying that whatever his intentions were, what the Pope said the other day lacked political awareness of, or sensitivity to, the worldwide brewing conflict between Islam and Christianity.
Nevertheless, if you read the whole transcript, available here, you’d be surprised that his speech had nothing to do with Islam, the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), or Jihad in any way shape or form aside from an ill-chosen quote from a conversation between the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402.
In general, I have 3 main issues with this whole curfuffle:
1. Again, the media is playing its dirty role of propagating information without context to create headlines and promote sales, ratings, and readership to the derangement of the small minority of sensible human beings in the world.
2 . Because of the first issue, we’re getting a knee-jerk reaction from Muslims who, like the general population of planet earth, can’t really understand the philosophical underpinnings of the Pope’s speech and its goals.
3. The quote above, as I said, was ill-chosen for the occasion and purpose (unless the Pope has a hidden motive which is beyond the realm of anyone’s inquisition and hence a futile assumption) and it also lacked political sensitivity given the global circumstances.
Of equal importance is the fact that the Pope’s conjectures embedded within the quote are actually inaccurate reflecting the Pop’s ignorance about Islam for the following reasons:
a. Surah 2, Verse 256 which the Pope concludes to be from the earlier “powerless” days of Prophet Mohammed was actually revealed in Madina where Prophet Mohammed enjoyed unsurpassed strength and autonomy in his prophetic career.
b. The belief that God is absolutely transcendent, is not even bound by his own word, and that reason cannot be applied to God from an Islamic theological perspective that the “expert” Theodore Khoury attributes to “Ibn Hazn” (actually its Ibn-Hazm, but I don’t know if this is Khoury’s mistake or the Pope’s) is by far a marginal opinion in Islamic theology adopted by only Ibn-Hazm and his school of thought (the Zahiri school of thought). This school is long gone although Wahabbi Jihadism has some similarities to it.
In closing, Muslims should relax because the quote was ill-chosen, that’s it! But then again, conspiracy theorists supported by how the media reports these things will find ample evidence of the global conspiracy against Islam.
Although I tried to be rational I don’t expect rationality to prevail in this situation given how volatile the situation is and the Muslim self inflicted position of victimhood which, supported by conspiracy theories, will make a big soap opera out of this whole thing.
What Pope Benedict XVI hoped to be an enlightening speech about faith and reason is certainly turning into an Egg Benedict when there’s faith without reason!”
Then I also found this quite interesting (Title: Pope disses Islam, invokes Byzantine emperor who fought Turks), the author says;
“The Times notes that in the weeks after John Paul’s death in April 2005, the question of Islam was a key issue in the selection of a new pope. As a candidate, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who took the name Benedict after his election, embodied the more skeptical school within the Vatican. Unlike John Paul, Cardinal Ratzinger did not approve of joint prayers with Muslims and was skeptical of the value of inter-religious dialogue. In 2004, he caused a stir by opposing membership in the European Union for Turkey, saying that it “always represented another continent throughout history, in permanent contrast with Europe.”
In his first trip outside Italy as pope, he met with Muslim leaders in Cologne, where he said Catholics and Muslims must overcome differences, but also told them they had the responsibility to teach their children against terrorism, which he called “the darkness of a new barbarism.”
Last summer, he devoted an annual weekend of study with former graduate students to Islam. Notes the Times: “In that meeting, and since, he has reportedly expressed skepticism about Islam’s openness to change, given its view of the Koran as the unchangeable word of God.”
Then adds:
“Aiman Mazyek, president of Germany’s Central Council of Muslims said: “After the bloodstained conversions in South America, the crusades in the Muslim world, the coercion of the Church by Hitler’s regime, and even the coining of the phrase ‘holy war’ by Pope Urban II, I do not think the Church should point a finger at extremist activities in other religions.
Significantly (as the Chronology of Greek History at the Greek Folk Dance Resource Manual website reminds us), Manuel II Paleologus was Byzantine emperor when Constantinople was first besieged by the Ottoman Turks under Sultan Bayezid I in 1393. Pretty amazing that none of the media accounts have noted this rather salient fact. Constantinople finally fell to the Turks in 1453 under Emperor Constantine XI Paleologus, son of Manuel II.”
Then I found yet another engaging website (Religioustolerance) that, in the bits that I shall quote, lists a number of reactions of non-Muslims to the Pope’s unwise and uncalled-for reference:
“Renzo Guolo, professor of the sociology of religion at the University of Padua referred to the pope’s suggestion that Islam is distant from reason:
“This is maybe the strongest criticism because he doesn’t speak of fundamentalist Islam but of Islam generally. Not all Islam, thank God, is fundamentalist.”The Rev. Daniel A. Madigan, rector of the Institute for the Study of Religions and Cultures at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome said that the main focus of the speech was that:
“If we are really going into a serious dialogue with Muslims we need to take faith seriously.”Referring to quote from the emperor, he said:
“You clearly take a risk using an example like that.”
Marco Politi, reporter from the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, said:
“The text reveals his deep mistrust regarding the aggressive side of Islam. Certainly he closes the door to an idea which was very dear to John Paul II — the idea that Christians, Jews and Muslims have the same God and have to pray together to the same God.”Diaa Rashwan, an analyst in Cairo said:
“What we have right now are public reactions to the pope’s comments from political and religious figures, but I’m not optimistic concerning the reaction from the general public, especially since we have no correction from the Vatican.”The Rev. Robert Taft, a specialist in Islamic affairs at Rome’s Pontifical Oriental Institute, said that it was unlikely that the pope miscalculated how some Muslims would receive his speech. Taft said:
“The message he is sending is very, very clear, Violence in the name of faith is never acceptable in any religion and that (the pope) considers it his duty to challenge Islam and anyone else on this.”German Chancellor Angela Merkel defended the German-born pope, saying his message had been misunderstood. “It is an invitation to dialogue between religions and the pope has explicitly urged this dialogue, which I also endorse and see as urgently necessary,” she said Friday.
Russian President Vladimir Putin said:
“We understand perfectly how sensitive this sphere is. I think it would be right if we call for responsibility and restraint from the leaders of all world faiths.”According to USA Today:
“Vatican officials insisted the pope did not intend to be offensive and expressed regret over any hurt caused to Muslims.”
In the Qur’an, Allah says (And this is the same Aya that the Pope quoted, and advanced to say that it was from a Sura revealed in Mecca,not Medina - a terrible mistake appropriate to the greater fallacy in his speech):
“There is no compulsion in religion. The right path has indeed become distinct from the wrong. So whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All Hearing, All Knowing”
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256)
Without doubt, there are many other resources that one could resort to in order to be able to dissect the intentions of the Pope and the various reactions to his speech. For him to quote an Emperor, who had to give up a favorite city to the Ottomans and who had clearly disliked them for that, on a major world religion whose followers, right or wrong as they may be, are constantly provoked , is an imprudent act.
The issue at hand is not what the Pope meant or did not mean, because after all he could have quoted some other major historical figure on, say Judiasm or any other religion, (and in the case of the clever word-play of the Vatican’s secretary of state, cardinal Tarcisio Bertone who said that the Pope meant to undertake “certain reflections on the theme of the relationship between religion and violence in general, and to conclude with a clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence, from whatever side it may come.” — he could’ve at least cited another “violent interpretation” of another religion if he did not want to take Islam out of the affair, just humor the public, your eminence). I take my stand as pertains to the Pope’s timing and selection, as well as the comparison he drew between Jihad and the Christian Holy War.
The Pope’s timing was inappropriate, his selection of quotations was unwise, and the parallel he constructed between Jihad and the Christian Holy War is unfounded. Consequently, this leaves me wondering about the nature of his intentions, as well as the credibility of his sources. You do not attack secularism and mistakenly slip in a quote by a biased Emperor, which also happens to be offensive to the sensitivities of many people.
There are those who say that the Pope was trying to point out that religion and violence are not a good combination, and that the reactions of many Muslims to this speech were indeed a confirmation that what they embrace is a violent religion; I think that is an oversimplification and a sign of naiveté. For the sake of argument, in hypothesis, if you, who are civil and in general superior to the grand public, understand that this public is no more than an angry, violent mob, would you provoke it? If you do, how wise are you?
In my opinion, violent reactions to most situations do not solve any problem and sly provocations do not gather good results. But I would take those who put themselves at a pedestal and talk about the “barbarians” to task when it comes to their understanding of current times, because if they do understand current times, their actions would not go out only to prove that those barbarians are really, truly, barbarians only for them to point out and say “Ah, see, we told you so”. How different are they from those they look down on and provoke? Shouldn’t they take a bigger share of responsibility for what their actions generate, since they are better informed and refined?
This was just a general record of what I have read and the reactions I came across for Pope Benedict’s recent speech. My own interpretations are also thrown in there, and I am earnestly amazed at some of the nonsense ultra-philosophical renderings of what is happening. On to world peace, in Utopia.
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September 22nd, 2006 at 3:17 pm
What frightened me the most about the pope’s controversial comments is his failure to recognize the horrific violence inflicted by the white christian world from WWI,WWII, Hiroshima/Najazaki, vietnam, palestine, iraq, etc The fact is Islam’s violence is media-genic (beheading of victims, planes flying into buildings) but white christian violence has been far more devestating in numbers and in impact yet the pope was not able to see that. That’s scary. I don’t mind criticism when its objective. But the pope reminds me of US and Israel who kill on almost a daily basis and the headlines are full of news of the victims of jews and white chrstians yet all the pope, and the anglo-jewish axis see is muslim violence. i think it’s true that we have NOT a clash of civilizations but the calculated violence of the West against the Muslim world where the crude backlash of the Muslims is used to further sustain and escalate violence against the Muslims, often in the name noble ideals such as democracy and human rights or in under the guise of defensive ideals such as the war on terror. at the end, Muslims are starved and slaughtered by the TENS OF THOUSANDS and that is NEVER a reflection of moral flaws of anglo-jewish values, but a violnet beheading of 100 or so innocents becomes defining of Islam and Muslims.
September 22nd, 2006 at 5:33 pm
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You put forth a very compelling argument dear Tololy , the sources and the selections as well as your own input are very balanced. However the main issue with this whole controversy has to do with what I call and will continue to defend until the last day of my life “ Freedom of speech”. The Muslims shouldn’t get angry and the Pope shouldn’t apologize because if anything his speech sheds further light on the freedom of speech and the ability of the people to say what they want to say whenever they want to say it even if that means the violation of some of the divinely inspired literature and so forth. My point is simple terms is : we should continue to encourage freedom of speech even when it is against our stalwart belief and against our faith.
<p></p></span></font></p>
September 22nd, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Muhannad;<br />Ideal :-)<br /><br />Hatem;<br />You are right, all of us need the "freedom of speech", the problem here is distorting the facts and defaming the reputation of the best ever creature. If your speech stands on facts; go a head, no one will object.<br /><br />
September 22nd, 2006 at 7:27 pm
I think Hugh Fitzgerald, in his series of articles "Islam for Infidels," lays out the case against Islam pretty strongly. The whole idea that their is no compulsion in Islam is a bit silly to anyone who has ever looked at how dhimmis have been historically treated, how apostates are treated in Islamic societies, and how broadly the concept of ‘"defense" is interpreted in Islam as grounds for waging jihad.<br /><br />Here are his articles:<br />http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004628.php<br />http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004748.php<br />http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005050.php<br />http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005051.php<br />
September 22nd, 2006 at 7:41 pm
<p>Mahdy,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Help me out here, who is distorting who? Who is defaming who! How do you equate "quoting" with "defaming" ? How do you equate "Quoting" with " distortion" ? I’m not sure that we are listening to the same gamut. I don’t know if the Muslim’s reaction is right or wrong, I don’t know if the Pope’s quote is appropriate or inappropriate, all I’m saying is that : Let people say whatever they want to say, there is no need for any violent or even peaceful reaction. Let us shake all of the pollen from our mentality and rise up to the level of professional interlocutors.
<p></p></span></font></p>
September 22nd, 2006 at 8:06 pm
Please read this…<br /><br /><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/arabic/news/newsid_5370000/5370752.stm"> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/arabic/news/newsid_5370000/5370752.stm</a><br /><br />this is the terrorism…<br />
September 22nd, 2006 at 9:56 pm
OK, all I wanted to say is "if you are not saying a fact, don’t say it, if you want to insult someone and you don’t have evidence, or you don’t have the courage to go on, don’t say it"…<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">And it’s obviously that Benedict didn’t either said facts or has the courage to go a head…</span><br />
September 22nd, 2006 at 11:20 pm
In response to Muhannad:<br /><br /><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3380"><i> What frightened me
the most about the pope’s controversial comments is his failure to
recognize the horrific violence inflicted by the white christian world </i><br /><br />Noone thinks that the natives of South America were asked politely to convert to Christianity! And I’ll certainly admit that it was better to be a Christian in the Middle East in the Middle Ages than a Muslim in Europe. But today? <br /><br /></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3380"><i> The horrific violence
inflicted by the white christian world from WWI,WWII,
Hiroshima/Najazaki, vietnam, palestine, iraq, etc The fact is Islam’s
violence is media-genic (beheading of victims, planes flying into
buildings) but white christian violence has been far more devestating
in numbers and in impact yet the pope was not able to see that. </i><br /><br />Well we can argue about the evils of the West until the cows come home, but to bring the discussion back onto the topic: The conflicts you talk about above were not religious wars. In contrast, the planes flying into buildings and cutting people’s heads of bit is always justified in terms of religion and some kind of perceived "crusade." <br /><br /></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3380"><i> i think it’s true that we have NOT a clash of civilizations but the calculated violence of the West against the Muslim world </i><br /><br />I’d counter with what the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey, said:<br /><br /></span></span>"a different civilisation whose people are convinced of the superiority
of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power."<br /><br />Convinced with superiority of culture and obsessed with inferiority of power…it sometimes seems as if the Arab world is going through a ‘Weimar’ stage of its history, not understanding why it is relatively powerless and blaming outsiders - or the Anglo Jews as you put it - for all its ills. <br /><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3380"><br /><br /><br /><br /></span></span>
September 22nd, 2006 at 11:27 pm
That is fine, but we still don’t know his motive for uttering that particular quote, we can only speculate.
September 23rd, 2006 at 1:13 am
Hatem, your understanding of freedom of expression is naive. freedom of expression, even in so called free world, has limits. I dare you to speak critically of Judiasm and get away with it in France. Then there the the other part of the free speech concept: the right to rebuttal. Yes Hatem. Free speech does not give you instant Free Approval or No Counter Point. You are free to say what you wish and people have the right to like or dislike what you say. people can express their disapproval with protests, letters, emails, burning flags, whatever, this is too is FREE SPEECH. So the pope can say what he please and Muslims have a right not to be silenced by anyone as they express their indignation. They can demand an apology too. The pope may chose to apologize or not.
September 23rd, 2006 at 1:18 am
"<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3388">blaming outsiders - or the Anglo Jews as you put it - for all its ills. </span></span>"<br /><br />And who gave palesine to the jews? the only obstacle to democracy and progress in the arab world today are dictators protected by US and UK. <br /><br />please stop saying silly things like above statements. it’s too cliche, espially as the US and UK and Jews kill Arabs on a daily basis and rob their land and natuaral resources while backing corrupt dictators who suck the life out of the economy and run it to the ground. god lord you won’t even take responsibilty for things that are too obvious to everyone but you.<br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 1:52 am
Aside from Tololy, the best commentary on this issue has come from Christopher Hitchens at Slate<br />http://www.slate.com/id/2149863/<br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 12:34 pm
Hala, thank you, you’ve just said what I faild to express…
September 23rd, 2006 at 1:44 pm
<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3388">"a different civilisation whose people are convinced of the superiority
of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power."<br /><br />
Really? Do you think the palestinians who are rotting in refugee camps
are obsessed with the inferiority of their power or simply outraged at
the thought that the west handed over their homes to jews and watched
them suffer and gave them band aids and some rice as a consolation prize?<br /><br />
Whenever the anlgo-jewish axis of murder wants to evade responsiblity
they start philosophizing the situation. after all, it’s better to speak
of high concepts than to speak of US/UK sanctions that killed half a
million Iraqi babies who could not even get basic medications and water
sanitation chemicals. <br /><br />
its time you take responsiblity for your centuries of inhumanity from
colonialism to cold war terror to backing of corrupt and brutal
dictators to daily killings of civilians in Iraq and afghanistan and palestine and of course the horror of what you did in lebanon by preventing the UN from stoping the jewish terror.<br /><br />To that’s "arab conspiricy theory" and "blaming the west and israel" and "obsession with power"<br /><br />What callous, brutal freaks you people are. totally incapable of self-reflection. you only see your pain but you have no qualms causing great harm to others.<br /><br /><br /></span></span>
September 23rd, 2006 at 4:28 pm
<p>Hala,</p>
<p>Freedom of speech is not reserved for this group or that group, It is for every body. Listen to the Imams during Friday sermons in any mosque of your choice in Amman, you will hear them stymie the Christian people week after week, but the Christans don’t bother with it because they got used to it and it isn’t worth replying. In some instances reticence towards oblouy is much better than manifesting unnecessary supercilious attitude. Regards.</p>
September 23rd, 2006 at 5:42 pm
<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3399">"Listen to the Imams during Friday sermons in any mosque of your choice in Amman, you will hear them stymie the Christian people"</span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3399"><br /><br />Really? You were at all the mosqus all at once? i did not hear what you have heard. <br /><br />" but the Christans don’t
bother with it because they got used to it and it isn’t worth replying.</span></span>"<br /><br />I take exception to you lumping all Chrstians together. Fact is this is a Western versus third-world issue and not a Muslim vs Christian issue. But the Pope seems determined to turn it into a religious issue by polarizing the two worlds. Leave it to a fomer Hitler-youth German to do a good job of promoting tolerance ;)<br /><br />But you are incorrect in suggesting that some of the intolerant Western countries leave the issue alone no matter how often we berate them, as you say. How many conferences about history and religion have you been toin Europe and US? How many magazines and newspapers have you read based in US or UK or Denmark? <br /><br />If you want to know about the systematic dehumanization of Arabs and Muslims by the West just pick up a copy of Edward Said’s Orientalism. Then, do a simple search on Google about islam and use negative words next to it. <br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 6:20 pm
<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3398"><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3388"><i> Really? Do you think the palestinians who are rotting in refugee camps
are obsessed with the inferiority of their power or simply outraged at
the thought that the west handed over their homes to jews and watched
them suffer and gave them band aids and some rice as a consolation prize? </i><br /><br />Perhaps the Palestinians who are rotting in those refugee camps should also look to two sources a little closer to home. First of all neighbouring Arab states who have left them festering in those camps in their own countries and treated them as second class citizens.<br /><br />Secondly their own leadership and the armed groups that claim to represent them. When the Israelis withdrew from Gaza there was the perfect opportunity for the Palestinians to claim a moral victory by building a civil society and economy that could have provided the foundations for a future Palestinian state. That wouldn’t have meant in any way acquiesing with Israel btw. <br /><br />But - instead it was all too easy to fire missles over the border and give the Israelis excuses for further incursions.<br /><br /><i> </span></span></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3398"><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3388">
its time you take responsiblity for your centuries of inhumanity from
colonialism to cold war terror to backing of corrupt and brutal
dictators </i><br /><br />There’s no space to respond to this in detail, suffice to say that I don’t think either of us have a great deal to be proud of.<br /><br /></span></span></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3398"><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3388"><i> To that’s "arab conspiricy theory" and "blaming the west and israel" </i><br /><br />I’m reminded of one of the final scenes in the excellent docu-film about Al Jazeera during the Iraq war, "Control Room", where one of the AJ producers remarks that Israel is a convenient excuse for everything and quips that if the price of vegetables goes up in Damascus tomorrow then the traders will no doubt blame Israel for it<br /></span></span></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3398"><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3388"><br /><br /></span></span></span></span>
September 23rd, 2006 at 7:18 pm
But actually, wait a minute here. Why am I having a discussion about the evils of the West and the "Zionist entity" with you, when the original post was about Pope Benedict’s speech?<br /><br />Doesn’t the very fact that it has moved onto the plight of Palestinian refugees and 500,000 (sic) children supposedly being killed by anti Sadam sanctions, prove one of the points that the former Archbishop of Canterbury made: (http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/09/confronting_isl.html)<br /><br />For the record I thought Lord Carey was going a bit OTT when talking about Islam as a whole, rather than certain currents of thought in the Islamic world.<br /><br />But the fact is: A speech by someone a lot of people in the West think of a 78-year old guy in a purple cassock sparks off riots, effigy burnings etc - as well as general comment about how this is yet another example of the "crusades" and the West being "disrespectful to Islam" etc etc<br /><br />The sad thing is that there will have been plenty of people, catching 30 second clips on the news here and there, who will come to the conclusion that, assuming Benedict meant to say what he did, he was right. <br /><br /><br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 7:27 pm
I am for what Dirk said lastly in his comment : "<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3403">The sad thing is that
there will have been plenty of people, catching 30 second clips on the
news here and there, who will come to the conclusion that, assuming
Benedict meant to say what he did, he was right.".<br /><br />That is precisely why we need to learn to construct our arguments logically and to talk to and understand those who do not share our views. This goes for everyone because there is too much finger-pointing going on and not much being done about it.<br /></span></span>
September 23rd, 2006 at 7:40 pm
"<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3401"><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3398"><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3388">
First of all neighbouring Arab states who have left them festering in
those camps in their own countries and treated them as second class
citizens.</span></span></span></span></span></span>"<br /><br />You blame those Arabs who hosted the refugees and bore the burden of political instability but you leave the zionists free from blame. You really have to take a hard look at your religious and values which breed this sort of twisted thinking that blames the victims and those who helped the victims but leavs the murderous israelis out of the equation, as if they were some hidden force.<br /><br />"<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3401"><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3398"><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3388">When
the Israelis withdrew from Gaza there was the perfect opportunity for
the Palestinians to claim a moral victory by building a civil society
and economy</span></span></span></span></span></span>"<br /><br /> Wasn’t this called aparhied in South Africa? And what are you babling about? What moral victory in Gaza when you have no control over water, electricity, telecom, coastline, foreign policy, airspace, airwaves, etc? Did you not hear the Israeli speech at the UN that says NO TO PEACE…or let me correct this..NOT TO RETURN OF REFUGEES AND NO TO WITHDRAWAL TO 1967 BORDERS. And you want us to pretend that by "behaving" well in Gaza that we will get what is rightfully ours? THE ISRAELIS DON’T WANT PEACE. THEY SAY IT IN SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS EXCEPT THE ACTUAL WORDS. <br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 7:47 pm
I will not give the pope any excuses. All he had to do is to say Islam is not a religion of violence and it was not speread by violance and the whole ordeal would have ended. but he did not. Heck all he had to do is compromise and say that Islam and Chrsitianity are guilty of using violance to spread the faith and that would have been acceptable too in my book. But there is something sinister in the Pope’s refusal to say the magic words which would have ended any misunderstandings and any misreading and would have made it unecessary for you to give excuses about what the pope meant ro did not mean. What is more telling is now what he really meant or did not mean, but the fact he refuses to say Islam was not spread with the use of violance or to condemn both religions equally (since in my opinion both have at times used violance to convert people.
September 23rd, 2006 at 8:10 pm
I couldn’t agree more Tololy. Seeing that Benedict actually got the period when Muhammed said what he did about forced conversions wrong, there was a heaven sent (no pun intended) opportunity by Islamic leaders to seize some moral high ground. <br /><br />His speech could have been dismissed or belittled along the lines of "this guy doesn’t even know what he’s talking about." <br /><br />Instead, Governments and (non extremist) religious groups fell over themselves in an unseemly scramble to show who had the biggest Islamic credentials for the benefit of the "street." <br /><br />Fortunately for everyone who doesn’t want to see a clash of civilizations, things seemed to have died down and common sense has prevailed - for now. <br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 8:21 pm
XXX - As I said, I shouldn’t have even replied to Rafi’s comments about refugees, sanctions etc. So for the same reason it’s probably not sensible to get into a discussion with you.<br /><br />Why? Nothing personal but it’s just not going to get us anywhere. <br /><br />I will say this: You make a few assumptions about me and what I do or do not believe. So personally - I think that the way forward is here: <br /><br />http://www.geneva-accord.org/<br /><br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 9:36 pm
"<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3408"> I think that the way forward is here: http://www.geneva-accord.org/</span></span>"<br /><br />Listen to me carefully. Never will Palestinian Arabs be the first ethnic group since the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the the Geneva Convetions to forefit their human rights and priotection from expulsion guaranteed under the Geneva Convention for the benefit of making space for jews or any other ethnic group. If we do, that would set a dangerous precedent and Arabs will be thrown out of every place where they are unprotected and the Palestinains will be used as the precedent. If the West think it’s morally acceptable for the Arabs to be the first to forefit their human rights, then you will have to excuse Ahmadinajad’s call to forefit Israel’s right to exist. One collosal act of racism and racial supremacy deservs another.<br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Interesting post, Tololy… far too much theere for me to comment on everything I would like to. So I am only going to comment on twop items:<br /><br /><span id="printableVersion"><i>“This is maybe the strongest criticism because he doesn’t speak of
fundamentalist Islam but of Islam generally. Not all Islam, thank God,
is fundamentalist.”</i><br /><br />The evidence for this claim seems to be shrinking, not growing. And if the people who are representing Islam in the media and on the streets are not fundamentalists, I think I would really hate to find out what the fundamentalists believe.<br /><br />My other comment is about what AhmedT said on his "Thinking Blog" about Medina. His claim that Medina was the height of the Propeht’s powers seems to be historically innaccurate. He had just been driven to Medina by pagan arabs and successfully (and decisvely) repelled thei continued attacks on him, at Medina. That was the beginning of the Prophet’s rise to ascendancy in the region. Just like the Pope said.<br /><br />Commenter </span><span class="commentTitle">Muhannad: You cite things that Christians did in the 20th century as examples of Christian violence. Did any of the perpetrators of that violence claim that they were acting in the name of God? Or even that they had the endorsement of their religion for what they were doing? Those actions were all motivated by politics and the self-interests of a state, and had nothing whatseoever to do with religion. Quite different from what is happening today. I, personally, would have much LESS of a problem with the violence of muslims if Islam was not always tied to the violent acts. As it IS, rightly or wrongly. You are comparing apples to oranges.</span><br /><span id="printableVersion"><br /><br /></span>
September 23rd, 2006 at 9:57 pm
hatem abunimeh<br />I don’t know if you visited all Amman’s Masjeds, and please its <span style="font-weight: bold;">Masjed </span>not Mosque…<br />It’s not true, what you said absolutely not true… in our religion the Christians divided into two groups, <span style="font-weight: bold;">Hawaryoun </span>and <span style="font-weight: bold;">Nasara</span>. The first group is the people who followed God and Jesus and they are all died now, the other group is the people who changed and altered God’s speech and they think that they crucified Jesus, and this group –the second one- is the unbelievers (moshrekeen)…<br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">We respect the first group, but the other one, NOOOO, they crucified Jesus and killed Mohammad (pray and peace upon him), we’ll never ever forgive them…</span>
September 23rd, 2006 at 10:00 pm
xxxx,<br /><br /><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3409"><i>Listen to me
carefully.</i><br /><br />No, I won’t, but I did skim what you said :)<br /><br />And to be honest, it’s all the same old.<br /><br /><i> Never will Palestinian Arabs be the first ethnic group
since the Universal Declaration of Human Rights</i><br /><br />It’s interesting that document was ratified in the same year arabs first tried to commit genocide on Jews in Israel, don’t you think?<br /><br />There was a state of Palestine that year. Right next to the state of Israel. Borders and all. The whole deal. For about 2 weeks. The one and only time there was ever (in history) a state of Palestine.<br /><br /><i> and the the Geneva
Convetions</i><br /><br />The Geneva Conventions pre-date the creation of Israel by quite a lot. They pre-date the United Nations by the same number of years, since one of the first acts of the United Nations was to create the state of Israel. And the state of Palestine. And the state of Jordan.<br /><br /><i> to forefit their human rights and priotection from expulsion</i><br /><br />This has already happened. Jews were expelled from Arab lands all across the middle east. They were also expelled from europe. Arab muslims are trying to expel Black muslims from Darfur as we speak, with some success. I’m afraid that too many people have been expelled from their homelands to easily list here, but I’m sure you could find many examples if you cared to look.<br /><br />Whatever you (Palestinians) do, teh only precendent you are setting is for violence against the innocent. A precedent that Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and many others have unfortunately followed.<br /></span></span>
September 23rd, 2006 at 10:07 pm
"<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3410"><span class="commentTitle"> Did any of the perpetrators of that violence claim that they were acting in the name of God? </span></span></span>"<br /><br />WHO CARES!!! THEY WERE WHITE CHRISTIANS!!! <br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 10:20 pm
<p class="MsoNormal">For purposes of accuracy, the Pope did not say what you
confirmed he said, Craig. <br /><br />
This is what he said "According to the experts, this is one of the suras
of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat."<br /><br />
Points to make about this:<br />
1- Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, was not powerless at this point and
could not have possibly been powerless, as established in your own words when
you said that he "<span class="commentbody"><span id="comment-3410"><span id="printableVersion">successfully (and decisively) repelled their (pagan Arabs’)
continued attacks on him, at Medina"</span><br /><span class="commentbody">2-Surah Al-Baqara was revealed in Medina, which is not
the "early period" at all. </span><br /><span class="commentbody">3-The Prophet’s calling for Islam was always under
threat. Nothing new there and nothing new in its being under threat in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>.</span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">The difference you see, as I gathered, is that the
Prophet did not enjoy his most "power" - and I prefer the term
"influence" or "success"- in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>. A reading into a reliable book about
Islamic history would show you otherwise. Do not mix what happened after the
Prophet’s death with what he accomplished during his lifetime.</span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">The pope’s statement was fundamentally wrong in that he
did not even adhere to historical correctness by saying that the Aya was
revealed in the early period, and that just takes the sense out of
everything that follows. Moreover, he did not say that this was "</span></span><span id="comment-3410"><span id="printableVersion">the beginning of the Prophet’s rise
to ascendancy in the region". That’s a speculative addition by your kind
self.</span><br /><br style="" /><!–[endif]–><span id="comment-3410"><span id="printableVersion" /></span></span></span></p>
September 23rd, 2006 at 10:25 pm
XXXX - As I said, I won’t respond. <br /><br />But Tololy, if you ever do post a comment about the Geneva Accords or indeed about any possible solution to the Israeli / Palestinian conflict, I’d love to take part in the subsequent discussion.<br /><br />Mahdy Hassan - <i> Crucified Christ and killed Mohammed? </i> What do you mean?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 10:47 pm
Craig, so basically you are a supremacist jew reading from the Old Testement and you want the palestinian to accept ethnic cleasning in palestine since it’s practised in Sudan. More perverse logic. <br /><br />The Old Testement:<br /><br />50- On the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho the LORD said to Moses, 51 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you cross the Jordan into Canaan, 52 drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. <br /><br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 10:51 pm
"<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3412"><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3409">Jews were expelled from Arab lands all across the middle east.</span></span></span></span>"<br /><br />Don’t you get tired of repeating lies? <br /><br />The US and Europe were threatning countries that did not allow the Jews to leave to Israel. Remeber the millions paid to Ethiopia to allow an airlift of jews? Rememeber the pressure on Yemen, the pressure on the USSR to let the Jews leave? How will you write your history 100 years from now? The Russians expelled the Jews? The yemenses and Ethiopians expelled the Jews? More lies and more deception? your ability to twist facts despite the recorded history is sickning. And above all, you do it with a straight face. <br />
September 23rd, 2006 at 11:10 pm
Mate - explain me something. <br /><br />First of all you were XXX, then XXXX, and now XXXXX. <br /><br />Several comments from now are you going to be XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX?!
September 24th, 2006 at 12:20 am
inflation
September 24th, 2006 at 3:51 am
Dirk:<br /><br />All of us know that the Jewish and the Christians killed there prophets and a Jewish woman poisoned our prophet Mohammad (pray and peace upon him)… <br /><br />What we expect from people killed there prophets??? Believe me, nothing. Most of Muslims feels sorry for the ignorance and sins you live in…<br /><br />Dirk, you are soooooooooo weak… when you enter an argument with someone; don’t ever insult him, that means he is wining the argument and he is the strong part.<br /><br />And YES, XXX, you are the strong side because you are with the truth…<br /><br />
September 24th, 2006 at 9:46 am
Just a reminder:<br /><br />Relevance to topic:
<br />Comments that are dramatically off-topic will be removed as they
could confuse readers. Comments that do not contribute to the
discussion of the entries, or to the debates introduced by comments
relevant to topic will be removed.<br /><br />Personal attacks:
<br />Personal attacks against me, my family, friends, or other
commentators are not acceptable. Comments of such genres will be
removed and the individuals behind them banned.<br /><br />Language:
<br />Repeated abuse of language
could result in a permanent ban for the individual behind such conduct.
Hate speech, racist remarks and discriminative statements all come
under the same flag.
<br /><br /><br />
September 24th, 2006 at 10:33 am
<span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3426"></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3426"><i> Dirk, you are
soooooooooo weak… when you enter an argument with someone; don’t ever
insult him, that means he is wining the argument and he is the strong
part. </i><br /><br />Insult him? Er, oh right, the xxxx bit . Actually that was a JOKE, and I thought XXX (or XXXX)’s response was to it pretty funny too.<br /><br />I won’t respond to the Christians and Jews killed the prophets bit. I imagine most Muslims would agree that this is really outlandish. <br /><br />Great blog Tololy, and yes, this is all going a bit off topic so I’ll stop, but will definitely check in again to see what else you post in future. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></span></span><br />
September 24th, 2006 at 2:47 pm
Sorry, when I said “Dirk, you are soooooooooo weak…", I meant his technique in arguing, nothing personal, sorry Dirk and Tololy…
September 24th, 2006 at 4:47 pm
Should the Pope have learned to shut up?…
Should the Pope have exercised his right to remain silent?…
September 24th, 2006 at 7:10 pm
Yes, I must agree with some of the other posters here. I love your blog design.
September 24th, 2006 at 8:12 pm
xxxx,<br /><br />not sure why I am replying to you, but:<br /><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3414"><br />"WHO CARES!!! THEY WERE WHITE CHRISTIANS!!"<br /><br />I care. If it doesn’t matter whether somebody claims they do their dirty work in the name of God or not, why don’t muslims stop making that claim? Are you afraid more people will see the evil acts for what they are, and that muslim causes will lose legitimacy? Your causes have no legitimacy in the eyes of non-muslims anyway. Claiming you commit crims in the name of Islam just discredits your religion.<br /><br /></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3418">"Craig, so basically
you are a supremacist jew reading from the Old Testement and you want
the palestinian to accept ethnic cleasning in palestine since it’s
practised in Sudan."<br /><br />I’m not a jew. Why is it that every time somebody disagrees with me on a Jordanian blog, they call me a jew?<br /><br />Tololy, this is a racist comment, and it’s also religious bigotry.<br /><br />I’m not asking you to delete his comments (or any of the other bigotted comments) - I’m just pointing it out :)<br /><br />I also love your blog design, and I like your posts too. I don’t much like some of your commenters, but I get the distinct impression they feel the same way about me, so that is what it is :)<br /><br /></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3414"><br /><br /><br /><br /></span></span>
September 24th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
You can de-spam my comment about being called a "Jew" on Jordanian blogs by everyone who doesn’t agree with me if you want, Tololy, or not. I just think it’s funny. It’s not important. It’s happened at leats once on every Jordanian blog I ever commented on, and I’ve never made it a secret that I’m an American Christian of European ancestry. Weird stuff. Does not compute.<br /><br />There’s been a remarkable display of religious bigotry against Jews and Christians in this thread, considering the topic is supposed to be about whether the Pope was excercising religious bigotry against muslims. Is it OK for muslims to be bigots, but not ok for them to be the victims of bigotry? More weird stuff.<br /><br />Anyway, on to your comment, Tololy, since you seem to be the only one here talking sense :)<br /><br /><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3415"><span style="font-style: italic;">This is what he said "According to the experts, this is one of the suras
of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat."<br /><br /></span>I still don’t see anything incorrect in that statement. Powerless may be too strong a term, but he was certainly in a precarious position at Medina. Even after he won the battle against the pagan arabs.<span style="font-style: italic;"><br style="font-style: italic;" /></span><br style="font-style: italic;" /><span style="font-style: italic;">1- Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, was not powerless at this point and
could not have possibly been powerless, as established in your own words when
you said that he "</span><span class="commentbody"><span id="comment-3410"><span id="printableVersion"><span style="font-style: italic;">successfully (and decisively) repelled their (pagan Arabs’)
continued attacks on him, at Medina"<br /><br /></span>Well… ok… not poweless… but not powerful, either.<span style="font-style: italic;"><br /></span><br style="font-style: italic;" /></span><span class="commentbody" style="font-style: italic;">2-Surah Al-Baqara was revealed in Medina, which is not
the "early period" at all. <br /><br /></span><span class="commentbody">What period would you say it was?<br /><br /></span><span class="commentbody" style="font-style: italic;">3-The Prophet’s calling for Islam was always under
threat. Nothing new there and nothing new in its being under threat in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>.<br /></span><span class="commentbody"><br />I don’t really understand this claim either. Wasn’t the threat reduced, as the Propeht expanded his control in the region, and defeated his enemies?</span><span class="commentbody" style="font-style: italic;"><br /></span><br /><span class="commentbody"><span style="font-style: italic;">The difference you see, as I gathered, is that the
Prophet did not enjoy his most "power" - and I prefer the term
"influence" or "success"- in </span><st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on" style="font-style: italic;"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city><span style="font-style: italic;">. </span><br /><br />No. He didn’t. I won’t go and search out historical texts on the web unless we get into a detailed debate, but when he enterred Medina, Medina was 100% either Jewish or Pagan, right? Three Pagan tribes converted to Islam shortly after his arrival. Two Jewish tribes were expelled. One Jewsih tribe was destroyed, after the battle, for conspiring against the Prophet. Which left one Jewish tribe remaining in Medina, with the rest of the city being muslim.<br /><br />The Prophet’s position was pretty precarious at Medina until the end. And it remained precarious in the REGION for quite a while after Medina, wasn’t it?<br /><br /><i>A reading into a reliable book about
Islamic history would show you otherwise. Do not mix what happened after the
Prophet’s death with what he accomplished during his lifetime.</i><br /><br />Well, I haven’t read a book specifically about the Propeht. I have read encyclopedia entries specifically about his life (and not all the articles were Wikipedia articles :) ) and I have read books about the history of the Middle East, which included the accomplishments of the Prophet.<br /><br />Judging by some of the commenst I’ve seen on many blogs, I know more than many muslims do. As does the Pope, in my opinion. I’ve seen muslims make some appallingly incorrect claims about the life of the Prophet.<br /></span><br /><span class="commentbody" style="font-style: italic;">The pope’s statement was fundamentally wrong in that he
did not even adhere to historical correctness by saying that the Aya was
revealed in the early period, and that just takes the sense out of
everything that follows. Moreover, he did not say that this was "</span></span><span id="comment-3410" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="printableVersion">the beginning of the Prophet’s rise
to ascendancy in the region". That’s a speculative addition by your kind
self.<br /></span></span><span id="comment-3410"><span id="printableVersion"><br />Can you explain a little better why you don’t think this was the "early" period? Do you say so because on a historical basis, or a religious one? What I mean by that is, do you feel it wasn’t an early period because much had been revealed by that time? Because you couldn’t reasonably expect the Pope of the Catholic Church to base his comments on the teachings of another religion. If you feel it wasn’t an early period because of historical events, could you explain in what way? </span></span><span id="comment-3410" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="printableVersion"><br /><br /></span></span></span></span></span><br />
September 25th, 2006 at 10:31 am
How did I miss this post???<br /><br />Too much to comment on…but Tololy dear, please let’s put together a book list for Mahdy to expand his horizons? I think ‘reliable’ sources for him are only the ones that he agrees with.<br /><br />Mahdy, there are MANY holes in your understand displayed here. When I want to learn about Islam, do I go to Soloman Rushdie? No, I can go to Tololy and others as she is a devout follower. I suggest when you learn about Christianity, you go to people who are devout followers. Too many Muslims cut and paste from sources like the Jesus Seminar, and others who claim to be "christian" but are actually worshippers of their own empty intellect…who take out the parts of Christianity they don’t like and call it theology. <br />
September 25th, 2006 at 10:34 am
Also, in response to the blogger quoted, I don’t think the Pope was speaking ‘ex cathedra’ here. I am not catholic and don’t believe he ever speaks infallibly, but I believe that term is reserved for specific works of doctine, such as Humana Vitae, not speeches such as this.
September 25th, 2006 at 2:11 pm
KINZI,,,
<br /><br />You said "I can go to Tololy
and others as she is a devout follower", how you can tell??? What is the
rule to decide who is a devout follower???
<br /><br />By the way, there are only 3 ‘reliable’
sources that I 100% agree with, Holy Quran, Bokhary and Muslim…
September 25th, 2006 at 2:52 pm
<p class="MsoNormal">My my, I wish I have enough time to say everything I want to
say.<br /><br />
Craig, I will try to answer as faithfully as I can, and I will try to be as
true to the information I have as possible but bear in mind that history was
never my thing. Point by point, here we go:<br /><br /><span class="commentbody"><span id="comment-3436"><i><span id="comment-3415">This is
what he said "According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the
early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat."</span></i></span><i><br /><br /></i><span class="commentbody">You said: "I still don’t see anything
incorrect in that statement. Powerless may be too strong a term, but he was
certainly in a precarious position at <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>.
Even after he won the battle against the pagan arabs."</span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">His having used the word "powerless" is what
makes the statement incorrect. A word makes a world of difference, especially
coming from such a figure. I won’t dwell on this though, there’s enough
material elsewhere in his speech more worthy of examining.</span><i><br /><br /><span id="comment-3410"><span id="printableVersion"><br /><span class="commentbody" />2-Surah Al-Baqara was revealed in Medina, which
is not the "early period" at all. </span><br /><br /></span></i><span class="commentbody">You said: "What period would you say it
was?"</span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">In Islamic history, as well as in the sequence of the
revelation of Quran, events either happened before Muslims moved to <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:city> (which means they happened in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Mecca</st1:city>),
or after they moved (which means they happened in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:city>)
and Suras were either revealed in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Mecca</st1:city> or <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>. What is called an
"early period" is the period in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Mecca</st1:place></st1:city>.
This Sura was revealed in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:city>, not <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Mecca</st1:place></st1:city>. I will get back to
this later.</span><br /><br /><br /><span class="commentbody"><i>3-The Prophet’s calling for Islam was always under
threat. Nothing new there and nothing new in its being under threat in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:city _moz-userdefined="" u1:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" u1:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city></st1:place></st1:city>.</i></span><i><br /></i><br /><span class="commentbody">You said: "I don’t really understand this claim
either. Wasn’t the threat reduced, as the Propeht expanded his control in the
region, and defeated his enemies?"</span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">It was reduced but the threat was never absent. Again,
there is a great difference between saying that something was never under
threat, and saying that it was never under a threat of a certain degree. I
think you said somewhere that the prophet was "not powerless, but not
powerful" in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>,
and this proves what I just said.</span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody"><i>The difference you see, as I gathered, is that the
Prophet did not enjoy his most "power" - and I prefer the term
"influence" or "success"- in </i><st1:city _moz-userdefined="" style="font-style: italic;" u1:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" u1:st="on"><st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city></st1:place></st1:city><i>.
</i></span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">You said: "No. He didn’t. I won’t go and search
out historical texts on the web unless we get into a detailed debate, but when
he enterred <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:city>, <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city> was 100% either Jewish or Pagan,
right? Three Pagan tribes converted to Islam shortly after his arrival. Two
Jewish tribes were expelled. One Jewsih tribe was destroyed, after the battle,
for conspiring against the Prophet. Which left one Jewish tribe remaining in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>, with the rest of
the city being muslim.</span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">The Prophet’s position was pretty precarious at <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city> until the end. And
it remained precarious in the REGION for quite a while after <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>, wasn’t it?"</span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">I won’t go into how many tribes converted and how many
conspired against the Prophet, I think that’s beside the point. <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city> was not a 100%
either pagan or Jewish, I wonder where you got that idea from. When the Prophet
arrived in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:city> he and the Muslims with him
were welcomed by other Muslims FROM <st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:city></st1:place>,
mainly from two tribes.</span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody">Of course the situation was precarious in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>; that is what I
have been trying to point out. </span><br /><br /><span class="commentbody"><i>The pope’s statement was fundamentally wrong in that
he did not even adhere to historical correctness by saying that the Aya was
revealed in the early period, and that just takes the sense out of
everything that follows. Moreover, he did not say that this was "</i></span><span id="comment-3410"><span id="printableVersion"><i>the beginning of the Prophet’s rise
to ascendancy in the region". That’s a speculative addition by your kind
self.</i></span><i><br /></i><br /></span></span><span id="comment-3410"><span id="printableVersion">You said: “<span class="commentbody">Can you explain a little better why you don’t think this was
the "early" period? Do you say so because on a historical basis, or a
religious one? What I mean by that is, do you feel it wasn’t an early period
because much had been revealed by that time? Because you couldn’t reasonably
expect the Pope of the Catholic Church to base his comments on the teachings of
another religion. If you feel it wasn’t an early period because of historical
events, could you explain in what way?”<o:p _moz-userdefined="" /></span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="commentbody">Here is where I go back to an early
point I made. In Islamic history, as well as in the sequence of the revelation
of Quran, events either happened before Muslims moved to <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:city>
(which means they happened in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Mecca</st1:city>), or after
they moved (which means they happened in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:city>)
and Suras were either revealed in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Mecca</st1:city> or <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>. This means it is
both historically and religiously incorrect to announce that this Aya was from
the “early period” when Islamic history and Quranic sequence, it was not. <o:p _moz-userdefined="" /></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="commentbody">At this point I have to contradict
you, I do expect the Pope of the Catholic Church, if nobody else, to adhere to historical
and religious accuracy when he is lecturing about my religion. I do expect
this, and I wonder why you don’t. If a person in that status does not use
accurate information in his speeches then, really now, I’ll leave the
prediction of consequences to your sane judgement.<o:p _moz-userdefined="" /></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="commentbody">I cannot help but feel that some
points are not yet addressed in the Pope’s speech. I have a number of comments
on other parts of the lines I posted from his speech, but I do not have the
time to examine them all. I think this is why so many people get away with
unwise, uncalled-for references – few people have the time to rebut their
points.<o:p _moz-userdefined="" /></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="commentbody">I hope it is clear that I am not a
reference on religion, and I do not pretend to be one (I am very far from being
an authority on anything, really). I do not want it to be understood that I am
devout follower or an example. I just try to argue using common sense.<o:p _moz-userdefined="" /></span></p>
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September 25th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Mahdy, although Tololy would prefer not to be considered a devout follower, perhaps it is her humility, her intelligence, her knowlege, her ‘paper trail’, her natural ability to practice what she preaches, her desire to follow her God well, that would cause me to ask her questions about Islam. We have met, and although we don’t know each other well, there is a ‘knowing’ in our conversations. Correct me if I am wrong, Tololy. <br /><br />If those three sources are the only considered reliable to you, than my case rests, proven by your unwillingness to research further. May you have a blessed Ramadan, may your love and devotion for the Holy One only increase. Salam
September 25th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
How do you think that I found those three resources, Kinzi???
I made a research; of course… You won’t find anyone can say a word about these
three resources, you can ask any Muslim you want.<br /><br />And about Tololy, I know her for 6 years now, and she knows what
I think of her. I didn’t mean Tololy namely, I meant anyone. How you can tell
that this person is a devout follower???<br /><br />I’m not good in preaching, you are
right; after Mohammad (pray and peace upon him) my second ideal is Omar Bin
Alkhattab, a very strong character; you can just fail in love when you read
about these two persons…
September 25th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
Mahdy, thank you for the suggested reading of Omar Bin Alkhattab. Is there an English translation?<br /><br />Forgive me for pursuing, but which of the other three resources said that Christians killed their prophets and Jesus Christ himself? Certainly not Bukhari? Jesus Christ said that the Jews had killed all the prophets, but it was the Romans who crucified him at the request of the mob riled up by the Jews. It was by no means a Christian who killed the prophet Mohammad (pbuh), and this is the first I ever heard a Jew poisoned him.<br /><br />And, I wanted to add that I hear the same thing from my neighborhood masjid that Hatem hears. Quite degrading and insulting things about my faith, and errors about what our doctrine states. Maybe he and I live in the same neighborhood. He is right, I’ve learned to live with it and move on; like Jesus said, turn the other cheek when one is slapped. But when I read things such as you have written, and XX above, I am compelled to comment.<br /><br />For all the reasons I listed previously, I would trust Tololy’s advice as a well-informed. My perception of her level of personal integrity may be idealized compared to the years you have known her. Another reason is that I don’t feel Tololy has contempt for my faith, and doesn’t "feel sorry for my sins and ignorance", rather she is quite respectful and engaging. It is people like her I feel I can discuss differences with, which is perhaps the essense of the post… how can the Pope hope to have dialogue and engage Muslims honestly when he quotes such things?<br />
September 25th, 2006 at 9:49 pm
Hi Tololy :)<br /><br />I won’t argue most of the points you bring up as I think we agree in substance if not on the details.<br /><br />But I have to dispute this one:<span class="commentbody">At this point I have to contradict
you, I do expect the Pope of the Catholic Church, if nobody else, to adhere to historical
and religious accuracy when he is lecturing about my religion. I do expect
this, and I wonder why you don’t. If a person in that status does not use
accurate information in his speeches then, really now, I’ll leave the
prediction of consequences to your sane judgement.</span><span id="comment-3454">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-style: italic;"><span class="commentbody">Here is where I go back to an early
point I made. In Islamic history, as well as in the sequence of the revelation
of Quran, events either happened before Muslims moved to <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:city>
(which means they happened in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Mecca</st1:city>), or after
they moved (which means they happened in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:city>)
and Suras were either revealed in <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Mecca</st1:city> or <st1:city _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on"><st1:place _moz-userdefined="" w:st="on">Medina</st1:place></st1:city>. This means it is
both historically and religiously incorrect to announce that this Aya was from
the “early period” when Islamic history and Quranic sequence, it was not.</span></p>Islamic History and Quranic History are both rooted in theology. And a theology the Pope does not subscribe to. Why would you expect him to use such references, rather than viewing the rise of the Prophet (in etrms of power and influence) from an objective outside perspective?<br /><br />Think of it this way, since somebody brought up the Nazis in the newest thread. What was an early versus late period in the history of Nazi Germany? A Nazi would probably describe Hitler’s publication of Mein Kamph as the early period, slong with his steady rise to political power in Germany. And everything that happened after he became Chancellor (since at that point Nazi doctrine was supreme in Germany) as the late period. That’s because Nazism was an ideology so a NAzi would use idological references. But what would a Historian say? A Historain would probably say that the early period BEGAN wehn Hitler became Chancellor, and the late period began with Hitler’s alliance with Italy and Japan to form the Axis and his military takeover of Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. That’s because a historian is not looking at the ideology, a historian is looking at actual events.<br /><br style="font-style: italic;" /></span><span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-3454"><span class="commentbody">At this point I have to contradict
you, I do expect the Pope of the Catholic Church, if nobody else, to adhere to historical
and religious accuracy when he is lecturing about my religion. I do expect
this, and I wonder why you don’t. If a person in that status does not use
accurate information in his speeches then, really now, I’ll leave the
prediction of consequences to your sane judgement.<br /></span></span></span><span class="commentBody"><span id="comment-3454"><span class="commentbody"><br />I hope you understand what I was saying in the above comment, because I think the Pope was using Historical references rather than idiological ones. To a non-muslim it really doesn’t look like Medina was a "late" period in the Propeht’s rise. It looks like an early period. <br /><br />Anyway, thank you for the level headed explanation, Tololy. I do apprecaite it. I learned a few things from you and I don’t disagree with you as much as you may think :)<br /></span></span></span><span class="commentBody" style="font-style: italic;"><span id="comment-3454"><span class="commentbody" /></span></span><span id="comment-3454"><br />
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-style: italic;"><br /></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-style: italic;"></p></span>
September 25th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
Kinzi, we call the Jewish “The Prophets Killers” its
in known in our religion, and it’s written in all three resources…
<br /><br />And about insulting Christians in Masjids, it’s not true, I
pray for 20 years now, and the times I heard Imam talks bad about Christians
are countable on one hand fingers…
<br /><br />For more information about Omar in English see this one:<br /><a href="http://www.anwary-islam.com/companion/umar-bin-khatab.htm">http://www.anwary-islam.com/companion/umar-bin-khatab.htm</a>
September 25th, 2006 at 10:44 pm
Kinzi, please tell me, what do you think of “Omar Bin AlKhattab”?
January 8th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
<p>Hi all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""><font size="2">The whole discussion is outrageous and turned around putting Muslims (the victims) on the defensive!.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><font size="2"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Why are we discussing legitimate Muslim resistance to Western aggression, conspiracies and meddling in Muslim affairs and ignoring the real evil, terrorism and violence practiced by the Christians, the Zionist Israelis as well as others in Palestine, the Philippines, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Bosnia, Somalia, Sudan and Iraq, to name a few places? Muslims are even robbed of the right to choose their own leaders and form of government! Puppet regimes are installed in every Muslim state from </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Morocco</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> and </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Tunisia</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> to </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Egypt</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">, </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Jordan</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">, </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Saudi Arabia</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> and all the way to </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Indonesia</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> and </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Malaysia</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">! <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Algerians elect Islamic-leaning individuals in municipality and local elections but the French rejected their choice and prompted their stooges in the Algerian military to stage a cop de Etas, that is supported by the U.S. and the Europeans, against a democratically elected president and cancelled the results of the elections! Similarly, the Palestinians elect Hamas as their government and the “Democratic” West does not respect their choice and slaps sanctions against the whole Palestinian population to starve them into submission!
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""><font size="2">Christian, Jewish, Hindu and any violence and atrocities by non-Muslims committed against Muslims is not violence, however, Muslim resistance to such violence committed against them on their own homelands is violence.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><font size="2"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">The latest example, after the conspiracy against </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Afghanistan</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">’s Taliban, is being witnessed in </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Sudan</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> and </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Somalia</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""><font size="2">In Sudan, the West instigated and supported the Christian repels in the South led by Africa’s foremost terrorism, John Garang for many years to destabilize Sudan and divide it into a Muslim north and Christian south that is rich in oil. However, when they failed and the government of Sudan negotiated and signed a peace agreement with the SPLA, the U.S. and the Europeans created other repel factions and unleashed them against Muslims in the Dar Fur region, killing and destroying villages then claiming that the Janjaweed and the Sudanese government troops are behind this. It is a win-win situation for the West for the victim and the accused are both Muslims! The fact is, the Sudanese government and the volunteer Janjaweed militia are combating the repels in the Dar Fur region who are terrorizing the innocent population of Dar Fur.
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><font size="2"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">NATO forces invaded Somalia in 1991, toppled its government then left it in turmoil and actually supplied and supported some armed gangs to keep </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Somalia</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> lawless and unstable for the next 15 years! As soon as a group of patriotic Somalis was able to take control of most of Somalia and restore order, rule of law and peace to the country, the U.S. and its Western allies become alarmed and disturbed moving swiftly to accuse three individuals of the Islamic Courts of being <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>members of “al-Qaidah” and conspire with Ethiopia to invade Somalia and openly support such invasion. Why was the </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Iraq</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> invasion of </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Kuwait</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> illegal and the Ethiopian invasion of </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Somalia</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> legal? Who decides what is good and what is bad? Is it God’s justice or military might?
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""><font size="2">For such reasons, Muslims must fight back and must not pay head to whatever labels Western media and government propaganda use against them. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><font size="2"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Violence and injustice are trade marks of the Roman Europeans who engaged themselves in violent campaigns against other nations throughout history. The Romans invaded vast lands in the east and south, raping, selling and buying their women and making their men into slaves entertaining the European masters as gladiators killing each other! The history of </span></b><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Europe</span></b></place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> is so bloody and full of violence and atrocities both against each other and against other nations. The Roman Europeans were the first to develop and use weapons of mass destruction. It was not Muslims who dropped the first Atomic bombs on the innocent populations of </span></b><city /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Hiroshima</span></b></place /></city /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> and Najazaki! It was not Muslims who used chemical weapons and Napalm in </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Vietnam</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> and </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Korea</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">! In what name did the British, the French, the Dutch, the Spaniards, the Italians, the Portuguese, and the rest of the European hordes descend on and occupy Africa, Asia and everything in between? In the name of religion (Christianity), in the name of Democracy, greed or all of those? The Italians invade and occupy Libya then massacres its people and commit all kinds of atrocities. Similarly, the French occupy </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Morocco</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">, </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Algeria</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> and </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Tunisia</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">, while the British occupy the rest of the Muslim world. What did these invading Europeans expect except that their aggression and violence would be met with legitimate resistance. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><font size="2"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">When the Muslims took </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Spain</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">, they brought knowledge, science, justice and high morals with them and made </span></b><country-region /><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Spain</span></b></place /></country-region /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> (al-Andalus) the beacon of civilization which brought </span></b><place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS"">Europe</span></b></place /><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: "Comic Sans MS""> out of the Dark Ages.
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