Tololy’s Box » Blog Archive » 3arabi: mas2alet takseer

3arabi: mas2alet takseer

Hadeek el youm o ana 3am ba7ki ma3 nas 3al GTalk, fakkart “ana 3arabeyyeh, o hada 3arabi, lesh 3am ne7ki bil inglizi ma3 ba3ad?”, o mo bas mne7ki bil inglizi, la2 ana kaman bada22e2 3al spelling mistakes wel sentence structure o I expect ino ykoon kol eshe mazbout.

Fa sho, hadi isimha maskhara wella nifaq wella ta2assor bil ‘3arb wella high-culture-make-belief?. Ana 7atta most of the time bafakker bil inglizi o ma ba3raf lesh… ya3ni fi kalemat ma momkin a7keeha bil 3arabi o fi kalemat mosh mawjodeh bil 3arabi o lazem a7keeha bas 3a meen el 7a2? 3al 3arabi illi ma 3am yosa3 kalematna wella 3alena illi ma 3am nwas3o 7atta yestaw3eb 3alamna? Mo el lo’3a just a tool that we can expand and advance as best suits us? Wella does it stay fixed and we shape our world accordingly?

O lalli be2olo ino el lo’3a mosh jozo2 men el haweyyeh wel thaqafeh, hadi ana basameeha 7ejjet el mfalles. You don’t only regard the situation of a minority, in this case Arabs brought up abroad, and say that since they identify with being Arab without having to know the language then that naturally abolishes the importance of language as a tool of cultural identification or assimilation. Sho sar bil 3arab elle bil dowal el 3arabeyyeh? fosto2 fadi hadol?

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This entry was posted on Saturday, October 14th, 2006 at 8:18 pm and is filed under Opinion, عربي. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

26 folks talked about “3arabi: mas2alet takseer”

OmAr says:
October 14th, 2006 at 11:16 pm
انا معك تماما, ويمكن برايي هادا برجع لعدم وجود بيئة عربية بتلبي الطموح, فبالاخر بسير الواحد لازم ياخد الثقافة من اصول انجليزية,والانترنت هي السبب الاكبر لتحويل التعبير للانجليزي مع جيلنا, فمع الزمن بتسيري اتعبري بالانجليزي وتكتبي بالانجليزي, وتحكي المصطلحات بالانجليزي. لانو ببساطة تعلمتيها بالانجليزي, ما اظن انو حجم المسخرة او النفاق كبير, انا متاكد لو كان في بيئة عربية بتلبي نفس الحاجات اللي بتلبيها البيئة الحالية الانجليزية, كان بتلاقي حالك متصلة بالعربي اكتر, ما اظن انك بتكرهي العرب او العربي او انك مش رح تستعملي اللغة مهما كان لمجرد الكره بس ممكن سؤال غبي؟ ليش ما كتبتي المقال بحروف عربية؟ or is this the best you could do in Arabic? :D
Devil's Mind says:
October 15th, 2006 at 1:01 am
Couldnt it be that you are using the language you feel more relaxed expressing yourself in?! Why do some (like you) create this whole world where if you don’t speak arabic then you are betraying yourself?! As you said, language is a tool, and you use the tool that you think best fits the purpose of using that tool!! O lalli be2olo ino el lo’3a mosh jozo2 men el haweyyeh wel thaqafeh, hadi ana basameeha 7ejjet el mfalles. - Do you really think so? If we agree that language is a tool, why do you place a tool in place of your identity?! Language is a tool to communicate with others, not a tool for people to identify themselves… You are using a tool for a purpose other than it is designed for, and thats why this tool will fail you badly in the long run! I think I once stated my view on languages. I believe that there needs to be only one global language. Language is a tool for people to communicate, and multi-lingual earth puts an overhead on this communication. We cannot read German books because its not our language, we need to have a translator in the middle, and translation is a big burden.. Thats why I usually (especially for online writtings) prefer to write english-only, as it is the most widespread language… And to me, usability of a language to reach a wide audience is my number one priority for using that language!
Ola says:
October 15th, 2006 at 1:10 am
Well, using English is better than using ArabISH, but using Arabic is best I guess… foe me I like to use English to practice my language… But I gotta admit it’s not the only reason! Maybe if I had the chance to practice it elsewhere I ‘d still use it online! 
بت هو كيرز يا تولولي؟ ما دام الأرض بتتكلم عربي… دونت ووري
hareega says:
October 15th, 2006 at 7:44 am
You can find an Arabic word to describe anything you want, but we’re not familiar with our own language. Besides Arabs have been very reluctant to introduce any changes in the Arabic language unlike all other languages in the world. The English being used today is very different from that used a century ago, same for all other languages
blue_eye says:
October 15th, 2006 at 9:54 am
انت تقولين الان انك تريدين استخدام اللغة العربية بدلا من الانجليزية ولهذا تكتبين بالغة التي تبدين رأيك بانها استولت على عقول الشبان باستخدامها؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟فاجعلي المبادرة من نفسك انت واستخدميها واما بالنسبة الى الامور التي عملت على انتشارها فيوحد الكثير منها.
eyad says:
October 15th, 2006 at 11:17 am
Languages are not creatures, or humans they can’t develop, languages are used by some people in some places,those speakers of that language develop that language,its good to speak many languages, but at least tongue language to be one of them.
adel says:
October 15th, 2006 at 12:22 pm
Arabic is such a rich and ubiquitous language. As they say
"use it or lose it”. Being a non-industrialized nations caused us to rely
on English language, simply because we need it.  

I learned how to type in Arabic when I was 8 years-old, I used
to type fast, but not anymore. So it’s a matter of usage and need. 

<o:p _moz-userdefined=""> </o:p>

I had the honor of being a volunteer in translating meebo to
Arabic. At first we had some difficulty finding specific translations for English
internet-related vocabulary, but eventually we found what we want.
rami says:
October 15th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
Post-colonialism, electonic colonialism, globalization… So many explanations for this dilemma.
Mahdy Hassan says:
October 15th, 2006 at 6:27 pm
<div style="text-align: right;">

في رأي عالم اللغويات تشارلز
كيفر (أن موت اللغة يتحقق عندما يهتم المرء
بأن يتحدث بلغة أخرى يجد أنها أكثر فائدة له
اقتصاديا وفكريا، وهو ما يدفعه أيضاً لأن يحرص
على أن يصبح إنساناً آخر، وأن يجد فرصة عيش
أفضل، ومن هنا يكون من العبث الدفاع عن لغة
وعن وضع إثني سوف يتحولان بمضي الوقت إلى
(فولكلور) قديم الطراز).

 نحن نتحدث هنا عن هزيمة الفصحى
وإضعافها، لا عن احتمالات موتها، إلا إذا
قصدنا موتا مجازياً على ألسنة الناس، يعزل
الفصحى عن الواقع المعاش، ويحولها إلى لغة
لبعض الفقهاء وأهل الاختصاص، على غرار اللغة
اللاتينية التي  لم تعد تتداول إلا في الكنائس
وفي أوساط نفر من الباحثين. ذلك أن وجود
القرآن وثباته ضامنان لاستمرار اللغة، التي
سيظل المسلمون -حيثما وجدوا -يؤدون بها
صلواتهم إلى يوم الدين، ولذلك فإذا كان هناك
من يتحدث عن انقراض بعض اللغات واللهجات من
اللغات السائدة اليوم (عددها 6700 لغة حسب
إحصاء منظمة اليونسكو)، فالقدر المتيقن أن
العربية الفصحى ليست من بين ما هو مرشح
للانقراض في الحاضر أو المستقبل </div>
Abu Sinan says:
October 16th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
  Arabic is in fact an identifier.  Look at the League of Arab Nations.  Arabic, the language, is how they identify who is and isnt an Arab.  This is how so many non Arab(racially) are a part of the League, countries like Morroco that have a majority of people who are not ethnically Arabic.
  Language has always been an important part of identity.  You’ll find that in most national liberation movements, language is been a large part of the process of redefining themselves and taking back their own identity, the best example I think of is Ireland.
  It is sad to run into young Arabs here in the USA who cannot speak Arabic.  I can see their faces turn red when I speak to them in Arabic, only for them to respond to me in English telling me that they cannot understand me or speak to me in theire own language.  Me, a white American.
  Not only do I view Arabic as an important part of Arabic identity, I view it as essential, not to mention is value in the religion.  A language tells a lot about a people.  Lots of valid observations can and are made about a people’s based on their language.
  It is very important to us, as we have cross-cultural babies.  My wife being Arab and me being a white American.  We speak mostly Arabic at home as we want both of our boys to be firmly grounded in both of their cultures.  We know as nuss-nuss(half/half) babies they will be held to a higher level than other children.
Language is an important part of a society, of a culture.  Loose it at your own peril.
Tololy says:
October 16th, 2006 at 5:03 pm
OmAr, I wrote this entry in that fashion because this is the "lingo" used by most Arabs when they chat online. I started thinking of this while chatting online, so that’s the connection. Do check my "Arabic" category for entries written in proper Arabic (standard and Jordanian dialect).
deep.panther says:
October 16th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
I think some boys talks English because boys thinks they are more sexy when talk like that, and visa verse. Its a way to attract the other sex.
Craig says:
October 16th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
 Not only do I view Arabic as an important part of Arabic identity, I view it as essential Do you have any idea how pompous that sounds?
Craig says:
October 16th, 2006 at 10:46 pm
This is how so
many non Arab(racially) are a part of the League, countries like
Morroco that have a majority of people who are not ethnically Arabic. The majority of Jordanians are also not ethnically arab. Jews have a better claim to being ethnically arab than most so-called Arabs :) And yet, jews are not considered arab. Maybe it is all about Language, eh? So are you an arab now, Abu Sinan? :P
Fresto says:
October 17th, 2006 at 5:45 am
أريد الاشارة هنا الى ان اللغة ليست مجرد اداه للتعبير، فالموسيقا أو الرسم أو حتى التصوير ادوات للتعبير، اما اللغه فهي مفهوم معقد، بيدأ بالهويه و لا يبنتهي بها، اللغة هي التكوين الثقافي الجمعي للامه، و ليست مجموعة من الاحرف و المصطلحات و القواعد، اللغة تمتد الى ابعد من ذلك، فهي نتاج الالاف من السنين، و نتاج ملايين التجارب الانسانية، فاللغة تحديدا هي التعبير الأدق لمفهوم التكوين الثقافي للبشر.

أؤيد مهدي في أن اللغه الفصحى تمت هزيمتها (بشكل او بآخر) و اعتقد ان السبب يكمن في تحييد الفصحى و فصلها عن اللهجات العامية، و التي تشكل بدورها الجزء الأهم من التجارب اليوميه للبشر…. و هذا يفسر الاستلاب (او حتى الانفصام) عند معظم المثقفين العرب، و لكن اظن ان هذا المفهوم بدأ بالتغير، و ادخلت اللهجات العامية في الشعر و الرواية و المسرح و السينما العربية حديثا، مما قد يشكل منعطفا هاما،  حيث ان دمج اللهجات العامية في اللغة الفصحى قد يكون نقطة البداية لإعادة احياء مفهوم اللغة كجامع لهذا المجاميع البشرية و اعادتها الى التاريخ…

بدون ان اطيل، قيل خلال هذا النقاش ان سكان المغرب العربي ليسوا عربا (او من عرق عربي)، فاردت التوضيح ان العروبة و العرب ليسوا عرقا فهذا المفهوم خاطئ تماما، و ليس مقبولا ايضا (انا لا اتقبل فكرة العرق اصلا)، فالقوميه هنا هي نتاج تاريخي ثقافي و ليست عرقا و سلالات…
Craig says:
October 17th, 2006 at 9:44 am
Fresto, it doesn’t matter if you "accept" the concept of ethnicity or not! I also don’t agree with you about language being a representation of culture. Have Irish Americans lost their cultural heritage because they don’t speak Gaelic, or because they don’t live in Ireland? Have Italian Americans lost their culture because they don’t speak Italian, or because they don’t live in Italy? It just doesn’t work that way. When you move to another country you will eventually lose your native culture (1st,2nd, 3rd generation… sometime, it always happens) whether you teach your kids and their kids to speak your native tongue or not.
Abu Sinan says:
October 17th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
  Looks like Craig is out to start a fight, again.  Anyway, Jews who come from Arabic speaking backgrounds are Arabs, there are hundreds of thousands of them from places like Yemen, Egypt, Morroco, Palestine and the like.
  Getting into it about who has a better claim to be called Arab than someone else is a bit stupid.  The fact is that a majority of Israelis and Jews are of European background and do not speak Arabic, hence they are not Arabs.  Those Jews that come from Arabic speaking backgrounds and countries are Arabs.
  I would be interested in a reference for your claim that a majority of Jordanians are not ethnically Arab.  If they are not Arab, what are they?  Please source your information for thise claim.
  As to Irish Americans, I would say that there is precious little "Irish" about most Irish Americans, aside from their history and DNA that is.  Having spent months living in Ireland I can tell you that Irish-Americans and the Irish in Ireland have basically nothing in common.  Most Irish-Americans do not have a clue as to what is part and parcel of every day life in Ireland today.  They dont speak the language, they dont understand the modern culture, they dont even eat the same foods.  Just try and find corned beef and cabbage in Ireland today.  But it is things like this that pass for "Irish" in America today.
  For most Irish Americans their roots extend no further than green beer on St Paddy’s Day.  This is exactly why the Irish flee Dublin by the thousands on St Patricks Day, to avoid all of the "bleeding plastic paddys" as one Irish friend of mine once put it.
  As to me being Arab, Craig, you know I am nothing more than an American who speaks Arabic.  Hardly makes me an Arab.  Why would I want to be anything other than what I am.  I am proud to be American, speaking Arabic or being married to an Arab doesnt take away from that one bit.
  Thanks for playing!
Craig says:
October 17th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
 As to me being Arab, Craig, you know I am nothing more than an American who speaks Arabic.  Hardly makes me an Arab. Yes it does. You just made a whole comment "proving" it. And what was that bit about agreeing with me that immigrants lose their native culture whether they retain their native tongue or not, while acting as if you were disagreeing? The comments on ethnicity were very funny, though, thanks :)
Fresto says:
October 17th, 2006 at 7:50 pm
Craig … Craig … I think you are LOST IN TRANSLATION …… there is a difference between ethnicity and being a racist ….. do you know the difference ….. do you really think there are a pure race in the world  ???…  
I personally think talking about ethnicity based on DNA or genetics will shift the conceptual basis of ethnicity to be racism … please refer to Nazi’s or Judaism, they can make a good example about that ….
Regarding language definition, please refer to linguistics,  there are like a million stream and research about that (take Naom Chomskey, for example), you will find a better answer there ….
One other thing …. You can’t make your point about language when talking about people deserted their lands (and I am not making a judgment about people who do so, its there free choice after all), the problem here is people who lives in the Arab world, though I know that most of Arabs in the western have maintained there connection with there heritage, and they still consider them selves as ARABS….
Craig says:
October 17th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
  I would be
interested in a reference for your claim that a majority of Jordanians
are not ethnically Arab.  If they are not Arab, what are they?  Please
source your information for thise claim. Palestinians are either an Aegean people (if you believe the Phillistines were invaders of Sinai and the Palestinians are their descendants) or they are Canaanites. Canaanites are Hamitic, not Semitic. There are two groups of ethnic arabs. The first group is descended directly from Shem, one of the son’s of Noah. They originated in Mesopatamia and migrated to Yemen. The second group is descended from Abraham (also one of Shem’s descendants) via Ishmael. The second group made their way to the Arabian desert and are mostly in what is now known as Saudi Arabia. The closest realtives to "true" arabs are the hebrews, as they are also descended from Abraham. There are other Semites besides arabs and jews. But Palestinians are not even semitic at all. They are either Hamitic or Aegean. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab You will find the defintion for both groups of actual arabs in there. I tried to quote but the comment box considered the formatted wiki text to be spam for some reason. Anybody not in one of those groups who calls themselves an arab is not using the term ethnically, but culturally… or, as you insist, lingusitically. But, honestly, Abu Sinan… I didn’t marry an arab woman and my children are not half arab, why don’t you know these things? When I, a white American Christian who doesn’t speak arabic and didn’t marry an arab, do? Why did you challenge me to document what you could have so easily researched yourself? Are you just ignorant and lazy, or do you think I’m too stupid to challenge your silliness?
Craig says:
October 18th, 2006 at 1:21 am
Fresto, I actually think I had a better grasp of what you were saying in Arabic than in English. Sorry! Just so you know, I base my opinions about ethnicty on anthropological data, which does include culture and history, but does not include language. As far as I’m concerned, language has nothing to do with ethnicty, not now and not in the past. If that were true, all native speakers of English would be considered the same ethnicty, which I think is an absurd idea on it’s face. Would you say that a 3rd or 4th generation arab in teh US who speaks English but not Arabic isn’t an arab, anymore? What would such a person’s ethnicty be? English? Because that’s the name of their native tongue? Sorry, these warm and fuzzy politically correct concepts leave my head spinning, especially when more than one of them is used at the same time :)
Abu Sinan says:
October 18th, 2006 at 6:44 pm
  Craig-"Palestinians are either an Aegean people (if you believe the Phillistines were invaders of Sinai and the Palestinians are their descendants) or they are Canaanites. Canaanites are Hamitic, not Semitic. There are two groups of ethnic arabs."
  So you are what some of your ancestors were 3,000 years ago?  Wow, I never knew I was, as someone of modern German ancestry, really Celtic!  I guess I will have to go out and learn "Celtic" whatevery that is.  I think the German government will be a bit upset to know they are not really German, rather Celtic, mixed in with a bunch of Huns who conquered the area previously, as well as a whole mix of other people who moved through the area.
  Hint for you Craig, Websters defines an Arab as:
"1 a : a member of the Semitic people of the Arabian Peninsula 
b : a member of an Arabic-speaking people"
  You can go back 5,000 years all you want to try and prove that Palestinians are really Arabic, as if what some of their forefathers did will somehow detract to their claim of the land of Palestine.
  I hope you dont mind if I go by the Websters definition of what an Arab is, and not yours.   Interesting you quote Wiki, I think I will stick with the academic sources.
  The Palestinian people are Arabic, as defined by Websters dictionary.  You can go back and talk about the roots of a people all you want, but that certainly doesnt subtract them from their current classification.  Palestinians are Arabs just as Germans are Germans, not Celts.
  I do love your "pure Arab" talk though, it is so Adoplh Eichman!
Abu Sinan says:
October 18th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
  By the way Craig, you just shot yourself in the foot.  If you agree that modern Palestinians are the "Philistines" then that means you must also accept that they were there BEFORE the Israelites were.
  We all know The Bible says that the Israelis displaced the "Philistines" from the Promised Land.  So if this was true, that means the Palestinians/Philistines have an older and better claim to the land of Palestine.
  Thanks for the admition Craig.  I wish all supporters of Israel were so open to admit that the Palestinians were indeed there first.
Craig says:
October 18th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
Abu Sinan, So you are what some of your ancestors were 3,000 years ago? You are what your ancestry makes you, Abu Sinan. That’s the way it works. I think the German government will be a bit upset to know they are not really German Germans are "germanic" dude :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples Mixing germanic and celtic would just yield a germanic/keltic mix. Kind of like your kids are an arab/whatever-the-hell-you-are mix.   Wow, I
never knew I was, as someone of modern German ancestry, really Celtic! WTF are you talking about? Germanic and Celtic are unrelated ethnicities. If you’re of mixed ancestry, just say so. Nothing wrong with that. My half-brother has an Irish mother and an Anglo father. He’s a Celtic/german mix. I guess I will have to go out and learn "Celtic" whatevery that is. Celts speak Gaelic. But yes, knock yourself out :) a member of the Semitic people of the Arabian Peninsula Palestinians are not semitic. They are hamitic. You clicked those wiki links I left for you, right? :P You
can go back 5,000 years all you want to try and prove that Palestinians
are really Arabic, as if what some of their forefathers did will
somehow detract to their claim of the land of Palestine. Palestine/Israel was never inhabited by arabs. It was INVADED by arabs - about 1000 years ago. I’m not talking about land claims, you are. But since Palestinians aren’t arab anyway, and that’s not an ancestral homeland of arabs, the whole point is moot. 
  By the way
Craig, you just shot yourself in the foot.  If you agree that modern
Palestinians are the "Philistines" then that means you must also accept
that they were there BEFORE the Israelites were.I didn’t do anything, because I’m not making any argument about ancestral homelands, you are :) But… since you did… If YOU believe the Palestinians were the Philistines, then read "Exodus" in the Bible. God had Moses lead the Israelites south and across the Red Sea in order to AVOID the land of the Philistines. Which makes the land of the Philistines, Northern Sinai. Not Canaan, which is where the promised land was. The Canaanites were another people that Moses lead the Israelites against in war, once they got to the promised land. 
You’re a remarkably ignorant man, Abu Sinan.
Abu Sinan says:
October 20th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
  You know what Craig?  You are my hero!  When I grow up can I be just like you?
  Happy Eid!
Craig says:
October 20th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
Cursing me with blessings again, Abu Sinan? :-O

3arabi: mas2alet takseer

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