Comments on: Jordanian Honor Horror

By: Tololy’s Box » Blog Archive » On Honor Crimes in Jordan, Again

Tololy’s Box » Blog Archive » On Honor Crimes in Jordan, Again — Sat, 17 May 2008 08:12:06 +0000

[...] realize that I have been lending the issue of honor crimes in Jordan a lot of attention lately, but that is still not [...]

By: laura

laura — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 21:51:15 +0000

Among the countries where honor killings were common and punished with a reduced sentence was Italy. Until 1981 men were punished with 3-7 years of enprisonment, a shorter penalty than usual for killings: when men found out/suspected that their female relatives had a relationship with a man they were ‘defending their honor’ if they killed their wife, daughter or sister out of anger and the law gave them a reduced penalty.

Honour killings are clearly connected to the subordination of women and to silencing domestic violence against women.

Gender discrimination can be erased only through social, legal and political changes.

Regarding the "facts and figures" Rehman refers to, according to Jordanian professor and novelist Fadia Faqir, sources of info on honour killings and violence against women in Jordan are quite problematic for 2 main reasons [F. Faqir, Intrafamily femicide in defence of honour: the case of Jordan, 2001]

1. statistics are scarce and written by gender-insensitive men

2. under-reporting by victims of violence. Fear of retaliation discourages women from reporting violence,oppression and abuse. Even investigations in cases of violence/killings are said to be lenient and superficial.

check out this website on honour killings: http://www.stophonourkillings.com/index.php

By: A.Rehman

A.Rehman — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 14:37:51 +0000

So Rev.Craig the God warrior is an impartial judge where it concerns my posts??? wonders never cease.

The world of media is skewed everywhere, when others abuse us it is fine, don’t be uptight, they don’t mean it and when we defend ourselves we are unreasonable, extremists and reactionaries. I rest my case.You may choose to moderate this one out too.

By: Tololy

Tololy — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:32:26 +0000

I did. Craig can verify that. Mick’s was a question, not a statement.

By: A.Rehman

A.Rehman — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:03:19 +0000

Thanks points taken.

"But please make sure they don’t offend others (that’s why one of your latest comments was not published.)"

Great, don’t mind that, Hope you used the same filter with Criag who called me from satanist to athiest to told me to shut up, or to Mick who offended lots of muslims by calling them evil and sneaky question mark notwithstanding and on top of that misrepresenting, you know in Jordan they don’t start converting people at the drop of a hat or at the curb side o wherever a visitor may go sightseeing.

’Mick says:
I’ve visited Jordan. I must have been proselytized by Muslims wanting me to convert a zillion times. Are all those Muslims evil and sneaky or just irritating?"

By: Tololy

Tololy — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 09:52:51 +0000

"extramarital or pre-marital sexual relationships"

That is perhaps the gravest error in your argument. If you had read the HRW report, you would have found out that the vast majority of the victims of so-called honor crimes have not been involved in any such relationships. The mere "SUSPISCION" of that is enough to kill them, do you understand?

I don’t suppose we need a poll to determine whether or not most women in Jordan would enjoy the company or attention of a male counterpart. Note, again, that this means anything from talking to a man to engaging in sexual acts with him (which like I said before, is not the case in most of the situations where women were murdered).

In the communities where so-called honor crimes take place, the act itself is a deterrent to further crimes. This is because the women who live in these communities have adapted, so to speak, to the situation and have become a lot more careful in dealing with men. They are constantly in fear of being found out and killed like, say, the neighbor’s daughter. Is that healthy? Not any more than the crimes are.

"Women are not scared witless by savage brothers and fathers lurking in the shadows with cocked guns and sharpened knives"

Judging by this note and the one following it, you seem to only consider the women in your own environment as a standard for what goes on in the communities where so-called honor crimes take place. That is inaccurate to say the least. If your family is normal enough not to kill its women, kudos to you and I hope you would argue for women’s rights in the future. But the truth of the matter is, your family is not the standard in those other communities.

I hope I made my points clear, and do forgive me if this goes under the "you don’t take criticism well" allegation category. I see it as mere clarification, oh, and thank you for your comments. But please make sure they don’t offend others (that’s why one of your latest comments was not published.)

By: A.Rehman

A.Rehman — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 04:46:38 +0000

"a theory if you will"

Tololy, let us put this theory to a test, how about an annonymous poll of 200-300 women asking if they wish to engage in extramarital or pre-marital sexual relationships and whether the fear of being killed is the main deterrent. Or how about this theory - Most women do not want to enter such relationships because the are convinced it can wait till marraige or are happy with their partners if they are married. However, the fear factor may play a role to a small degree and it is not only fear of being killed but also fear of disapproval and being shunned by friends and foes alike. This is Jordan’s society norms and many others, some in the west practice that and Mormons in America too.Women are not scared witless by savage brothers and fathers lurking in the shadows with cocked guns and sharpened knives. I have few sisters and many cousins and nieces some wear hijab and some don’t , some wear long dresses and some wear skort skirts and jeans (all their choices), most of them work and interact with men as a daily routine. We have not killed any of them . Iam sure this applies to most others.

Worthy topic and discussions, thanks.

By: Tololy

Tololy — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 19:44:44 +0000

"Tune it down, either we talk facts and figures and precedents or we talk conjecture"

A.Rehman, if I wanted to "tone it down" I would have done so already. The post is about an idea I had this morning, a theory if you will, about the role of honor crimes in restraining future honor crimes at the expense of women’s well-being.

By: sk8erboi

sk8erboi — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:56:15 +0000

I’ve always found honor killing sickening and disgusting, and a measure of the double standards that are spread in Arab societies.

A girl can have a relationship with a man, and get slain based on a sick false rumor by a sick person. While a guy can have any relationship he wants, "taint" the family name, and perhaps if he’s to be "punished", he’ll be outcast from the family.

A.Rehman, I think there’s a difference between Honor Killing and Crimes of Passion. Honor Killing is basically legalized by law and doesn’t require any burden of proof of infidelity from the perpetrator. While Crimes of Passion might lead to a reduced sentencing only if proven that there was in fact an act of infidelity and a proper psychoanalysis.

Any where you go you will always find a double standard when it comes to girls’ relationships vs. the guys’ relationships. That’s just the sad human nature!

By: A.Rehman

A.Rehman — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 15:57:38 +0000

In my opinion, honour crimes are not prevalent in Jordan. The simple reason why they are not an “epidemic” is because women have learned their lesson. In the areas where honour crimes are a potential danger to their lives, they have learned to keep mum about their relationships with men. Note that by relationships I mean anything from talking to a man to kissing him.

In part, honour crimes have themselves acted as a restraint to the spread of the practice — because women are afraid they will be killed. Of course, this means a great degree of social hypocrisy and a great deal of limiting these women’s freedoms and putting them under tremendous pressure and making them live in constant fear. It also means ensuring the continuation of this practice, ensuring it has popular support in the areas where it is acceptable, and perpetuating the cycle of gender inequality in Jordan.

This is harsh opinion and implies that women do want to have extra-marital affairs but are only scared to do so. This does not do justice to women, and yet to see a woman being killed for talking to a man in Jordan. Tune it down, either we talk facts and figures and precedents or we talk conjecture