There’s More To The Arab Blogosphere Than Egypt
I came across an article that discusses blogging in the Arab world. It is conveniently titled ‘Blogging in the Arab World’ and yet it only discusses the Egyptian blogosphere as if it is the only active, significant, prominent blogging scene in the region. Hello? The Arab world is made up of 21 other countries.
This sort of fallacy seems to be pretty dominant in traditional media reporting on, and paying attention to, Arab blogs. I have noticed that it is almost exclusive to Iraqi, Egyptian, or Lebanese blogs. Understandably, these blogs hail from areas unique in their political situation, but shouldn’t media reporting on the much-baffling and troubled Arab region also recognize blogs from other countries, which after all, make up an integral and vibrant part of the Arab blogosphere?
I believe that by lending attention to blogs from the less ’stable’ areas in the Arab world, media, specifically European and American media, sculpt an idea of a continuously troubled, challenged, chaotic Arab world — very much like what the movies and other media portray. In turn, what this does is further perpetuate negative stereotypes of either Arabs or their lifestyle. There is seldom any portrayal of regular, non-violent, non-chaotic, non-religious life in Arabia.
I wrote about this before when I noted that it is only when there is significant trouble that Jordanian bloggers garner international media attention. I think that is truly sad, because in each and every country in the Arab region there are bloggers who make change with every post, bloggers who have distinct voices rarely heard in mainstream media, bloggers who humanize Arabs and who affect, even if slowly, public opinions in their countries. It is such a waste not to listen to what they say or to cram them all under the category of one country and yet ignorantly stamp that piece ‘Arab blogging.’ It is a shame.
I emailed Reset asking them to change the title of that piece to ‘Blogging in Egypt,’ and I will keep you posted if and when they reply. Never lose your voice.
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April 1st, 2008 at 2:49 am
Sadly, the Jordanian blogosphere is fragmented to the point that its harming every one’s image
Every few days a new aggregator or community is established. It fails in a way that frustrates the users.
I am not blaming anyone for this but our weird nature of never cooperating even if our life depended on it. It’s very sad to say the least.
I just hope the Jordanian bloggers can look beyond their differences and present to the world a more unified front. Not unified in ideas and directions, but supportive of each other and helpful. Instead of allowing anyone to decide who’s allowed (or worthy) of blogging and who is not.
April 1st, 2008 at 3:24 am
Hey, Tololy, I really mean no offense but… the Jordanian blogosphere is about the most hostile and abusive environment there is on the internet, for Westerners. I don’t know if it’s because so many Jordanians are Palestinian or what, but it can be a pretty painful experience for a Westerner to visit a Jordanian blog. I think you are dead wrong if you think covering Jordanian blogs in the Western Media would give people a better impression of the Arab world than the other countries you mentioned. It’s not necessarily the bloggers either, but rather the commenters who do the damage.
What other countries would you suggest be spotlighted? KSA? Bahrain? Some of the other Gulf states? Syria? Bloggers in all those places pretty much toe the line and don’t get into anything controversial, so what would be the point of highlighting them? Some of the North African blogs are interesting (I particularly like the Libyan bloggers), but they don’t seem to get as much traffic, so they are probably not considered as important, no?
And, again, sorry if I caused any offense. You have a great blog, in my opinion, and you are one of my regular stops. I’m just trying to explain why I think the Western media steers clear of some “blog” regions, but not others.
April 1st, 2008 at 5:07 am
I steer away from all blog communities. I am only a member of one or two popular Palestenian ones, and that’s it. I honestly don’t want my blog to represent anyone but my self. If I keep labeling my self as this and that, then it is not going to be pretty. Also, I live in Canada, so why should I have my audience and my focus on Arabic blogspheres? If I want my blog and other blogs for that matter to succeed is by simple telling them, “represent your self, where you are CURRENTLY living, and that’s it.” I understand that you live in Jordan, but I have read many Jordanian blogs and even some Palestenian and Lebanese ones, and once the issue of “politics” arises, huge unnecessary fights submerge. It’s like people can’t wait to fight.
I think ALL Arab nations should be represented, but I have to blame site owners for not monetizing their blogs to make it presentable to the world.
April 1st, 2008 at 8:06 am
That’s interesting, maybe we should wait till we have our first jailed Jordanian blogger to get some attention.
The tag Qwaider started “why do you blog” showed a very high percentage of bloggers only do it for personal reasons. whereas, i don’t want to generalize, a lot of bloggers from other countries are focused on political subjects.
April 1st, 2008 at 9:56 am
hmm if you are looking for sycophant delusional existential creatures(e.g. sandmonkey) then u are most likely not going to find them in this blogosphere, as for our hostility … meh … not gonna bother refuting that one.
At an honest review of jordanian blogs, you realize that save for 2 or 3 there is really nothing special. rehashed stumbles, parroting of news, and mostly irrelevant information from an investigative journalist point of view so i think its fair… while the ones you quoted actually most likely to be strictly political. few jordanian blogs even talk about that
ENJOY
April 1st, 2008 at 1:43 pm
There is no such thing called “the bloggosphere” or a “blogger community” . There are websites…period.
If someone writes or points out to something worth attention it will be warranted the attention it deserves. Just like books , magazines, weekly newspapers and any other sort of media (on a more feasible scale).
Saying there are something common between two people who simply have and utilise their own cyber-space is just like saying “I am part of the email community”… Maybe when a few people were doing it, they felt a connection as members of an exclusive club…but at this point what does Tololy have in common with Samer Marzouq or Askadenia or Dave in Jordan or with any other individual who owns a website!! Absolutely nothing.
Even if you fconsider aggregators, they are nothing more than an easier way for the reader to navigate through multiple websites and nothing more. Delusional dorks who believe that people listed on the same aggregator as them are a part of their “network” should try mixing in some non-virtual friends.
April 1st, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I agree, Abu Shreek, with some of your points and other commentators’ points.
However, if you use the term ‘Arab Blogging’ and title an article in a self-respecting magazine/site/etc. as such, then you might as well take a look at the map of the 22 countries making up what is called the Arab region. You cannot quote people from one country only and call your article ‘Arab Blogging,’ that is idiotic. That was the point of my post.
April 1st, 2008 at 3:54 pm
I agree with Toloy’s last point, and that’s really what she was implying.
April 1st, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Qwaider, I don’t think the media’s lack of recognition of the Jordanian blogosphere has to do with its fragmentation as you argue. I don’t see how that’s a relevant factor. The Egyptian blogosphere is extremely diverse and I don’t see any sense of ‘unity’ that distinguishes it from the Jordanian one.
Tololy- I agree that the article should’ve cited other blogs outside of Egypt. But to the larger question of why the Jordanian blogosphere gets less attention, I would say it has to do with the fact that most Jordanian blogs do not deal with controversial political issues. They do address many social issues, but they tend to be more self-censoring than other blogs. As someone has mentioned before, this also has to do with the fact that many Jordanian bloggers use their real names, while many Egyptians blog anonymously.
April 1st, 2008 at 5:39 pm
I agree that there is an incorrect assumption that Iraqi, Lebanese and mostly Egyptian blogs make up the Arab Blogosphere and I agree that the Jordanian group is one of the most overlooked and ignored but there is a significant reason for that perception and thats the lack of unity and cooperation between many blogs of different nationality. The Blogs of different countries arent viewed together because they are NOT together, there is an attitude of self segregation among many bloggers and a hostility towards new bloggers. I remember when I was new on the scene, there was no welcoming mat and I recieved hostility from several bloggers of different countries just for saying, “Hi, I’m D.B.” In fact I recieved hostility from Bloggers from my own country.
Its so Ironic and sad how the network of Arab Bloggers operates much like the relationship of Arab countries. Just like Arab countries its like we are all together while being seperate, we’re in the same boat but everyones sitting in different corners. When we all act as one they will see us as one.
April 1st, 2008 at 6:19 pm
I don’t think the American’s standards of what an offensive, hostile and abusive environment is should be taken into consideration. You’ve exhibited enough hatred among Arab blogs through commenting and bashing whatever anybody considers a sense of patriotism, Craig. Therefore I don’t know how reliable your labelling the Jordanian blogs is and how you related it to the fact that most Jordanians are of Palestinian-origins, to me that is just pure bigotry.
Oh and I don’t believe you’re in a place where you should speak out for “Westerners”, there are millions out there that don’t quite deem to be fans of your own mindset :)
April 1st, 2008 at 6:40 pm
[...] blogging scene in the region. Hello? The Arab world is made up of 21 other countries,” writes Tololy from Jordan. Share [...]
April 1st, 2008 at 8:33 pm
[...] promised, I am reporting the response I got from Reset for my complaint explained in a previous post today. Reset changed the title of that article by Courtney C. Radsch from “Blogging in the [...]
April 1st, 2008 at 9:16 pm
I don’t think the American’s standards of what an offensive, hostile and abusive environment is should be taken into consideration. You’ve exhibited enough hatred among Arab blogs through commenting and bashing whatever anybody considers a sense of patriotism, Craig.
And yet, I’m about the only American (not Arab American) who even comments on Jordanian blogs at all. Why is that, Omar? And why am I now so aggressive now, when I wasn’t before? Do you have any idea how many times I’ve seen a Westerner make what they thought was a reasonable comment on a Jordanian blog (like Mental Mayhem) and they got completely mugged and raped by abusive Jordanians? Do you think somebody who knows very little about Jordan and who bothers to try to participate on a Jordanian blog is very likely to ever come back, after the second or third time something like that happens? Most blog commenters aren’t journalists or activists… we’re just regular human beings. We have better things to do then bend over for people who hate us and enjoy letting us know. The only reason I haven’t bailed yet is I’m stubborn.
I honestly don’t care if you agree with what I just said or not. The facts speak for themselves. Look around. The Jordanian blogosphere is an echo chamber.
April 1st, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Greg said: “I’m about the only American (not Arab American) who even comments on Jordanian blogs at all.”
That’s just not true, Roba, and Hala get plenty of commenters from the states. I would rephrase that to: (You are the most negative American commenter on Jordanian blogs), and none of us really understand why you care so much ?
Finally try seeing what happens when a typical Arab comments on a republican political blog, then talk about being raped by abusive commenters.
April 1st, 2008 at 9:52 pm
That’s just not true, Roba, and Hala get plenty of commenters from the states.
Arabs, who live in the states. Or in Britain. That’s not the same thing, Hani. Qwaidar made the same claim when I told him he was only reaching Arabs. He said 60% (or something) of his commenters are from the US. Well, look at the names next to those US flags, Qwaidar. You do know the difference between English language names and Arabic names, do you not? Do you think a lot of non-Arabs comment on Jordanian blogs and choose Arabic names for themselves? Or claim to be Arabs when they are not?
I would rephrase that to: (You are the most negative American commenter on Jordanian blogs), and none of us really understand why you care so much ?
Because of the war on terror? Why in the hell do you think ANY American cares so much? Do you see Americans climbing all over South African blogs? Chinese blogs? Ukrainian blogs?
Why is this blog in English? Why are ANY Jordanian blogs in English? The percentage of people who comment on Jordanian blogs who don’t speak Arabic is negligible. Is it just to practice English skills?
And, Hani, you wouldn’t think I was so dramatically negative about Jordanians (and Palestinians) if there were more actual Americans (and not just Arab-Americans) who commented on Jordanian blogs. Believe me when I tell you that I am much more open minded and much more engaged when it comes to Arabs and Muslims than the average America. If you think I’m a right wing fanatic, you’re completely wrong.
Finally try seeing what happens when a typical Arab comments on a republican political blog, then talk about being raped by abusive commenters.
And is this an Islamist blog? Are all Jordanian blogs, Islamist blogs? Why do you compare general Arab interest blogs to an American political blog?
April 1st, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Good that you were able to request the change! :)
April 2nd, 2008 at 12:14 am
Craig
There is such a difference between people who read and people who comment. I don’t wish to state the obvious but there are a number of areas where Westerner are genuinely interested in finding something else to discuss.
It all goes back to my original comment on fragmentation. Which denies everyone from critical mass.
The fact of the matter is that people like to read for people like them. It’s plain and simple, and most people who read for people who are not like them they simply have nothing to add, which means, they read, and they depart shortly after. Leaving no trail but a hit from the west.
The Arabic blogs are making noise, they are reaching audiences who look for them. But due to lack of cohesion they’re not ranking high on searches so it will take someone who’s looking really hard to find these blogs. Then even when they’re found, it’s not easy for a simplistic American mind to make the distinction between an general interest Arabic blog, and a terrorist site. I’m not calling Americans stupid, I’m saying they can’t tell the difference, for many reasons. Fear is the biggest factor here. If someone in this day and age tries to promote a video like Fitna that is pro Islam it wouldn’t even make 10 hits on Youtube, but the other is true, because people want someone to feed off their fears and bring out the hidden dark prejudice inside them
You Craig have a history of stirring the pot in a very negative matter standing up for values that are not shared, not only that, you think you know how it is on the other side. I’m sorry, it will take a little bit more than reading blogs and spewing a number of hateful comments to really understand the world from the Alternative side.
Anyway, I stand by what I said with statistics, and not empty or speculation. To give you a small thing to ponder about, there are pretty good Arab sites that cater only for Arabs at the top of the Alexa chart, so even if my audience is purely Arabic, I’m fine with it! But I wouldn’t say that, my audience is not Arabic, and I am often very open and sensitive to their demands unless they turn it to a negativity contest like you like to enjoy
April 2nd, 2008 at 12:15 am
Oh Tololy, way to go lady … it’s awesome to see you change the world … one title at a time
April 2nd, 2008 at 3:26 am
The fact of the matter is that people like to read for people like them. It’s plain and simple, and most people who read for people who are not like them they simply have nothing to add, which means, they read, and they depart shortly after. Leaving no trail but a hit from the west.
I don’t know if that was a typo or not, but people have the MOST to say, when they disagree with the blogger. Not the least. Only on Jordanian blogs, people aren’t allowed to disagree with what Arabs say. If they do, they get abused. Viciously.
Your comment trail speaks for itself. Compare to the commenters on Sandmonkey’s blog. His readers and commenters are 90% westerners. Yours are ~95% Arabs. Why is that?
I *know* that Westerners try to comment on Jordanian blogs from time to time. But, they get chased off. I’ve seen it. So have you, no doubt. The only ones who stick around are the people who have a thick skin.
You Craig have a history of stirring the pot in a very negative matter standing up for values that are not shared, not only that, you think you know how it is on the other side.
I don’t think I know how it is from the other side. And why should I? Why should I care? Like most westerners who show up around here, I started reading Arab blogs after 9/11. Why? To try to understand what’s going on. I found the poll numbers back then that showed 65% plus of Arabs in the middle east said they hated the USA to be unbelievable. I no longer do. And I no longer care enough to try to convince Arabs that hatred is misplaced.
The Arabic blogs are making noise, they are reaching audiences who look for them.
Are they? You have accused me of being some kind of extremist several times. I’m a Libertarian. I’m far to the left socially, far to the right fiscally, and a moderate on just about everything else. I’m about as close to the middle ground as you are likely to get on an Arab blog. But Arabs seem to think only leftists have a valid perspective. I have news for you, Qwaidar - if you aren’t reaching me (and you aren’t) then you aren’t being heard and understood by mainstream Americans. Leftists only account for 5% of the population here, if that. And they don’t even care about your issues, anyway. There isn’t a damn thing in Islam or in Arab culture that the left can support. Not one thing. The left is only playing footsy with you in order to gain ground against their political opponents here at home.
April 2nd, 2008 at 3:26 am
And is this an Islamist blog? Are all Jordanian blogs, Islamist blogs? Why do you compare general Arab interest blogs to an American political blog?
Most of the Arab blogs (as much as they are general interest as you wish to call them) are hugely concerned with political matters and never failed to tackle such subjects. So I think Hani’s comparison is completely legit; while I don’t understand how did you get “Islamist” blogs into this discussion - I mean, he’s just saying that as much as you get attacked for stirring things up and commenting on posts of bloggers that obviously support the Palestinian case and are Anti-Zionism, any Arab commenting on politically-driven posts (or blogs) would definitely be eaten alive. I mean, at the end of the day, thank God for the good flesh-eaters in Little Green Footballs, no?
Echo Chamber? why do you bother so much then? Go enjoy your garner of good old North African blogs (especially Libyan) and spare us your efforts of commenting.
April 2nd, 2008 at 4:12 am
[...] eto amin’ny faritra. Aiza ô? Misy firenena 21 hafa anie mandrafitra ny tontolo Arabo e ! ” hoy Tololy avy any [...]
April 2nd, 2008 at 4:44 am
Most of the Arab blogs (as much as they are general interest as you wish to call them) are hugely concerned with political matters and never failed to tackle such subjects.
That’s untrue, Omar. It is only Jordanian blogs and Palestinian blogs that dedicate so much time to Palestinian issues, and so much time to bashing Israelis and Americans. And if you really think that all Arab blogs are comparable to the most far right of American blogs, what does that tell you? That Arabs are a bunch of extremists? I wouldn’t disagree. At least, when it comes to Jordanians and Palestinians. I’d also agree that a very large percentage of the aforementioned blog COMMENTERS are racist, abusive jerks.
And yes, this is an echo chamber. Look at the comments for this post. 7 or 8 Arabs. And me. And everyone disagrees with me. And 2 Arabs have asked me to go away and not come back. Tololy, to get back on topic, why do you think the Western media should highlight Jordanian blogs? Is theer anything important happening here? Is there any meaningful dissent? Jordanian bloggers, arrested? For what? lol. There isn’t any Arab cause that isn’t supported with gusto on the Jordanian blogosphere. If any Jordanian blogger gets arrested, it won’t be for supporting terrorism, not for supporting political reform.
By the way, Tololy, if you’d prefer I didn’t comment here any more, all you have to do is ask. I’m drastically cutting down on the number of blogs I try to keep up with, anyway.
April 2nd, 2008 at 4:47 am
If any Jordanian blogger gets arrested, it won’t be for supporting terrorism, not for supporting political reform.
That should have read: “If any Jordanian blogger gets arrested, it will be for supporting terrorism, not for supporting political reform.”
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:03 am
Craig,
LOL! If this is liberal and leftist, I’m most certainly John McCain!
You have literally threatened to “kick me out of your country” for having alternate views on matters. Views that I allow my self BECAUSE of my proximity to the epicenter of events. I saw how they evolved and I know how they work, while the whole might of the CIA and geniuses like you have not figured it out yet. People don’t hate anyone unless that someone does something to provoke their hate. In the case of the US, it’s really very very CLEAR to EVERYONE IN THE UNIVERSE except, well cocky, arrogant Americans who think they stumbled on the reasons by browsing through poor translations of the Quran for words like Terror and say AH-HAH … Smoking gun! It’s rooted in their religion and culture!
I’m not the first to echo words like echo and cocky, just ask Martin Luther King, read what he said, and what caused him to get uninvited from the whitehouse and lead eventually to getting him assassinated.
Back to the topic at hand;
I’ve seen Jordanian bloggers at all colors of the spectrum when dealing with the west, from the extreme left to the extreme right with variable tolerances also varying from the most tolerant to the most rigid with positions on just about anything.
What the Sandmonky seems to portray is the Arab that the west likes, no disrespect to his goodself, I see someone who’s self hating the culture with little or no tangible constructive criticism, coupled with mockery of the greatness of this culture. What does that translate to? Read what I read earlier, many people look for written words that reaffirms their misconceptions. They’re not looking for the people who want to tell them they are WRONG and Mistaken, and have hidden prejudice, bias and racism that are not visible to them. Many don’t want people to tell them the truth that their visionary government has been supporting genocide for decades.
So what do they do? They turn to feel good blogs. Where they will be generously showered with Antiarab sentiment (from Arabs), pro blind west, Anti Arab achievement and culture.
Anyway, my blog for example will never be hijacked by politics, I refuse to allow it to happen, it will continue to be a reservoir for my thought, an idea here, a thought there, and yeah, some political talk here and there, but it’s not the main focus. There are way too many grim blogs out there that talk about politics, and only politics, and identify their responsible blogging by talking about politics
By the way, had you been a little bit more “tolerant” in your attacks arguments more people would have listened to you, and welcomed you with roses and open arms. Yeah, you don’t need to topple any statues here to get the hero’s welcome. All we ask is for people to understand first, not bomb first ask questions later.
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:49 am
Make the world a better case, punch Qweider in the face
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:14 am
So much has been said here that I don’t know if I have the time or the energy to respond to it all. I will just say what I think of the arguments here, generally.
I take issues with Craig’s saying that Jordanian blogs are collectively an ‘echo chamber’ but it might be true because we don’t really have any significant conflict that people from Europe and America would be interested in learning more about. I said this in my post, and I still think that media play a major role in that. If it doesn’t bleed, it doesn’t get coverage. Is that our fault? No. Should we create conflict to get coverage? Certainly not.
Another thing that irritated me in Craig’s first comment was saying that Jordanians are inherently abusive, and then linking that to Palestinian origins. That was offensive and downright racist. Craig, were you saying that all Palestinians and Jordanians are innately abusive? And if you were, what exactly were you thinking?
I don’t have a problem with anyone commenting on my blog, everyone is welcome provided they don’t do something outrageously obscene or offensive. I do hope that we can exchange opinions without generalizing, stereotyping, or calling each other names.
April 2nd, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Qwaidar: “By the way, had you been a little bit more “tolerant” in your attacks arguments more people would have listened to you, and welcomed you with roses and open arms.”
I call BS. When I was a “nice guy” I got called a Jew by three different people on Roba’s blog, in one day. Now that I get abusive back, people are a little more careful in what they say to me, at least.
Tololy: “Another thing that irritated me in Craig’s first comment was saying that Jordanians are inherently abusive, and then linking that to Palestinian origins. That was offensive and downright racist. Craig, were you saying that all Palestinians and Jordanians are innately abusive? And if you were, what exactly were you thinking?
I didn’t Jordanians are “inherently abusive”. I said Jordanian blog commenters are the most hostile and abusive towards Westerners in the Arab world. As for that being “racist” - neither Jordanian or Palestinian is an ethnicity, is it? Those are nationalities. Are you saying I don’t have a right to make judgments about a nationality, without being a racist? Does that apply to Arabs who make Judgments about the citizens of the United States? Or Israel? You’ve certainly got a lot of racist commenters on your blog then, Tololy… why did you single me out?
April 2nd, 2008 at 5:54 pm
And another thing, Qwaidar!
By the way, had you been a little bit more “tolerant” in your attacks arguments more people would have listened to you, and welcomed you with roses and open arms. Yeah, you don’t need to topple any statues here to get the hero’s welcome. All we ask is for people to understand first, not bomb first ask questions later.
That’s complete crap too! I wasn’t referring to myself when I spoke of Westerners who tried to be reasonable and rational getting chased off Jordanian blogs by abusive Arab commenters! You want me to go through Natasha’s archives and find you examples? Why don’t we just ask that ABduliaharr or whatever his name is (who comments here) about it? He probably remembers, since he’s one of the perpetrators.
I think the very first time I read Roba’s blog (after seeing Sandmonkey raving about how great she was) she had a post up condemning teh US media for covering Hurricane Katrina so much (it was the day before the hurricane made land fall) while Palestinians were suffering (or something equally inane) - I found that quite shocking and hateful, myself, and decided that Roba wasn’t so cool after all. How could anybody think Americans should be more concerned with events in the middle east, than the worst natural disaster in US history? How could anybody think that was a RATIONAL position to have? The amount of selfishness and contempt for others in that mindset is appalling.
And PS: You have literally threatened to “kick me out of your country” for having alternate views on matters.
Nice lack of context. I merely suggested that since you were 100% OK with Jordan deporting Protestants just because they were somehow found to be “objectionable”, even though deporting people because of their religious beliefs is a clear and obvious human rights abuse, that the US could return the favor. Do you honestly believe that you should have some protection from being deported, in the US, when you support arbitrary and illegal deportations of Jordanian residents? How does that make sense, to you, Qwaidar? Are you just taking advantage of the rights you have in the US? Rights you don’t believe people should have? Except you! You should have them! Right? But not anybody else.
April 2nd, 2008 at 6:43 pm
I just wanted to throw a couple of things in.
I agree to some extent with craig that some commentators are abusive, but craig you have to keep in mind that this is the web! You can’t expect people to be nice to you. It is scientifically proven that people online behave in a different way than in real life; they tend to be meaner and more on the offense.
That being said, jordan is in the middle of an unstable region, and the demographics suggest that we will be the ones affected most, thus it is expected that people will tend to be passionate about their causes.
Also, one more thing that we many times ignore: Jordanians have no say in their foriegn policy or even their own “internal” policy, this implies that people will vent whenever they have the chance, right?
I am not going to get into the politics and who is right or wrong, but we have to understand that people have different world views and are biased by default, so the least we can try in trying to view the world through other people’s lenses, just try that and life will become much easier..
April 2nd, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Craig, I didn’t single you out. I was only responding based on the comments that have been made, since they mostly tried to contend what you said in your comments. That’s all. I don’t get personal with commentators, I express my point of view as it is.
I knew that ‘racist’ was not the right word, but I am not a native speaker of English and sometimes my language betrays me. I meant to say that you made it seem as if Jordanians are on the whole an abusive group, and then you said that that may be because many of them are of Palestinian origin. THAT is a very dangerous and wrong conclusion to make. Did you really mean it that way though?
April 2nd, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Tololy: “I meant to say that you made it seem as if Jordanians are on the whole an abusive group, and then you said that that may be because many of them are of Palestinian origin.”
That’s a pretty good summation :)
Tololy: Did you really mean it that way though?
Yes, that’s my speculation. I’ve noticed a lot of similarity in the content and style (both) between Palestian and Jordanian bloggers / commenters. I haven’t seen it anywhere else on teh Arab blogosphere. I can’t help but think it’s related to the fact Jordan is the only Palestinian-majority Arab country. Maybe I’m wrong.
Can you come up with an alternate explanation? Or are you just dismissing my claims about the Jordanian blogosphere, out of hand?
Tololy: THAT is a very dangerous and wrong conclusion to make.
Why is it either dangerous, or wrong? Would it be equally “dangerous” and “wrong” for people to draw similar conclusions about the reasons why Americans have the opiniuons they ahve? Or why Israelis have the opinions they have? I see Arabs (particularly Palestinians and Jordanians) claiming that Israel controls US public opinion via AIPAC, all the time. That’s a foolish claim to make, but is it dangerous and morally wrong?
April 2nd, 2008 at 8:14 pm
OK, no more comments from me until I can get the text editer to work properly again! *sigh*
April 2nd, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Craig, where do you get your ideas from? How did I support, or even pardoned or justified any body’s deportation!? I didn’t even engage in that whole discussion, so how did you conclude that I encourage it!?
I was against Jordan deporting of poor Iraqis and wrote about it as well. I know we have issues, and I try to tackle the ones I have ideas about. So you are blaming me, for what someone else did?
If you didn’t notice, I never hide behind anonymity even when the comment is not very positive.
Anyway, there’s nothing that prevents any of us from being a little bit more accepting to the other side.
Tololy,
I’m very sorry to take so much space on your blog. Thank you for providing this space
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:46 am
Well, as a non-Arab American blogger in the J blogosphere I will take a deep breath and hold my nose and agree with Craig on a couple of points.
Now I remember this is the same Craig I have been reading at Mental Mayhem, QP and other places, for awhile now. I’ve agreed and disagreed with him at about equal intervals in my tenure here.
I am glad Mohanned posted what he did about it. I have commented at Zionist blogs, Evangelical blogs, Daily Kos, different places, and I would agree that the Jordanian blogs are a different breed as far as ‘group attack’ on an unpopular opinion. True, as Mohanned said, there is no other outlet for criticism and a sense that nothing will change.
Craig points out tough things, and it is sad for me to see that he, and others like him, instead of getting legitimate questions answered, gets a bunch of contempt for even asking the question. He is one of the few who has actually stayed in the game, most leave after real questions are left unanswered by anything than insults and name-calling, even by the most articulate bloggers (not you, Tololy). I wonder if Jordanians haven’t been willing to face the questions themselves, and the attack is a smokescreen of denial.
I have lauded the Jordanian blogosphere to many American friends & family as a place to learn more about my world, and most haven’t stuck around because of the lack of willingness to answer questions that are perceived as have alterior motives or as insults. Somehow, any question that fits this catagory gets channeled into the ‘there they go again’ category and is deemed below people to provide an answer.
Many of them are questions I have too, and as long as I have been here haven’t gotten a satisfactory answer. I sometimes feel my own blog is becoming less of who I am, as I am perhaps too aware of how much I self-censor to keep my readers. That feels like compromise, and I am struggling about where to go from here.
As Mohanned pointed out, we all have biased world-views, and this internet thing allows us to try on the lenses of other worlds. Craig is trying, and I affirm him for that. For every Craig, there are hundreds who left un-engaged and thousands who don’t even care to try to understand, it’s just easier to hate people who are different and a perceived threat.
I am looking to Queen Rania to set a different stage for discussion. :)
Love ya’ll.
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:06 am
<b>He is one of the few who has actually stayed in the game, most leave after real questions are left unanswered by anything than insults and name-calling, even by the most articulate bloggers (not you, Tololy). I wonder if Jordanians haven’t been willing to face the questions themselves, and the attack is a smokescreen of denial.</b>
kinzi totally unfair claim there, whenever i discussed something with him or tried to answer his questions with a more than comprehensive answer he start mud slinging, and thats not a single occurrence kind of thing, even though i don’t refrain from mud slinging back i still put forth an argument while his degenerates to more mud slinging and delusion… that has been the case with craig. plus i hate how he always tries to play the victim about how he tried to be nice, and i looked at the archives just to verify this claim and i never seen him being nice on any blog ! just spouting that same line to play a victim.
and craig for being craig will prob take his place on my troll watch :) congratulation craig, that is an achievement
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:03 am
Craig, It is both dangerous and wrong because you have not done any form of genetics research to determine that since many Jordanians are of Palestinian origin, that that makes them automatically abusive. I don’t know how many blogs you read, but I am a Jordanian person and as far as I know I do not attack people for no reason. Needless to say, the Jordanian people I know, even if they have Palestinian origins which is something you make seem derogatory, are not abusive. So I don’t see where you got your generalized idea from.
Jordanians and Palestinians are bound together by geography, history, customs, blood, and a plethora of other things. This explains why some topics treated on J and P blogs might be similar, but they are certainly not identical. This is for posts, not comments. You cannot detach people from their common cultures, and yet you always find a number of varying positions on any given topic treated in these blogs.
Your experience may have been different from others’. I know many Americans and Europeans who read my blog and other Jordanian blogs, and none of them has made the sweeping generalization you have made. Sometimes it really is easier to blame others for one’s own shortcomings. Did you ever consider that you might need to re-check your positions on matters and the way you express them? Not to change, but just reconsider as much as you would like others to reconsider. It is only fair.
I am not excusing abusive commentators because I know they exist in every blog, but because you feel you “know better” than they do, then the burden of being the more reasonable party falls on you. One should always examine one’s own attitudes and methods of self expression before shifting the blame to others who may not be entirely blameless.
I do appreciate your trying to understand Jordan better, perhaps the Arab region as well. Because as Kinzi noted, a lot of people don’t even bother. But we should all be careful and distinguish between an honest attempt to understand and interact, and an honest attempt to force change that simply does not suit the environment, one that pretends to enlighten when all it does is throw ungrounded insults and then calls people narrow-minded for not bending over. This was a general remark but one I hope everyone keeps in mind. I regret that you feel abused as you say on Jordanian blogs, and you’re always welcome here! I hope you know that :)
April 3rd, 2008 at 5:30 pm
I would like to see a single incident where anyone in the whole Jordanian blogosphere has chased out someone just because they asked a question.
Some of the longest comments I ever made, and received where by people people from “the west” asking questions, and me doing as much as I can to answer them and I can give you a list of them. These were questions spanning many pages and answers of even greater length.
Many people are eager to present views to the world, but as many have mentioned above. Most of the world doesn’t even care to know.
I draw a line in the sand right here, and say, to Craig, and anyone else .. if you have a question, post it. Give us a chance to answer it. If we don’t, then you can enjoy confirming your generalization.
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Bam, I actually thought you and Craig did pretty well at mud-slinging…mainly because you both kept to mud, not lowering yourselves to slinging stinkier refuse or machetes. About playing victim, I don’t recall. But, you have checked archives, I am only trusting my rusty memory.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:36 am
here’s a quote from the programmer:
“…Not once people start reading Jordanian blogs and realize just how many asshats live in Jordan, eh?”
Reference: http://www.360east.com/?p=947
beautiful remark, eh?
April 5th, 2008 at 6:36 am
Tololy: “Craig, It is both dangerous and wrong because you have not done any form of genetics research to determine that since many Jordanians are of Palestinian origin, that that makes them automatically abusive.”
I never claimed it was genetic, Tololy. Maybe it\’s a language problem again, but that’s the second time you’ve accused me of attributing behavior to ethnicity. I’m talking about cultural issues, not racial issues. And, I stand by my assertions. Maybe you can’t see it because you are too close to the problem, but the problem does exist. If you check blogs in other Arab countries, you’ll find westerners and Arabs disagreeing in a civilized manner. But you won’t find much of that on Jordanian or Palestinian blogs.
Omar: “here’s a quote from the programmer:”
And precisely how is that comment any different than the comments I’ve been making here? I’ve been complaining about the Jordanian blogosphere on other (non-Jordanian) Arab blogs for years. The best you could do was a comment I made a few days ago, that amounted to a synopsis of what I said here first?
PS-I’ll try and get back to people on other points they raised later. I’m not online much right now and I still can’t get this editer to work for me properly.
April 5th, 2008 at 6:38 am
PPS to Tololy in the meantime: Do you think it’s OK to stereotype American or Israeli behavior, based on culture or nationality? If not, can you explain why you never challenge your commenters when they do that?
April 5th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
I guess it depends on what you term a civilized manner of disagreeing. If someone insults another, they’re asking for trouble, in all cultures. You can’t insult people and expect them to be OK with it, as I am sure you will not be OK with it yourself.
Do I think it’s OK to stereotype Americans or Israelis? How is that relevant to our discussion of your generalization and judging Jordanians and Palestinians as abusive? Answer: it isn’t.
I don’t think it’s OK to stereotype anyone. In fact, my blog is all about fighting stereotypes and I think you can see for yourself how I loathe generalizations and stereotypes. Look into my archives and you will see that I have repeatedly fought them. Never say never, and often, it is Americans or Israelis themselves who fight these stereotypes as they are directly concerned with them. Again, look into my archives to see proof of that.
This will be the end of my participation in this discussion, mainly because I do not have the time or energy to continue. I believe I have repeatedly made myself clear, and I leave the floor to others.
April 6th, 2008 at 4:30 am
“”Maybe you can’t see it because you are too close to the problem, but the problem does exist. If you check blogs in other Arab countries, you’ll find westerners and Arabs disagreeing in a civilized manner. But you won’t find much of that on Jordanian or Palestinian blogs.”"
This Craig talking about civilized manner is too too much. My fisrt blog ever here got me a label of “satanist and shut the hell up” from this Craig and my post was neither abusive or uncivilized, re- missionaries. I never heard of this Craig before so was not even referring to him. NOW I KNOW BETTER.
April 6th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Tololy: “I guess it depends on what you term a civilized manner of disagreeing. If someone insults another, they’re asking for trouble, in all cultures. You can’t insult people and expect them to be OK with it, as I am sure you will not be OK with it yourself.”
That is indeed what I am talking about, Tololy. Most Jordanian blog commenters seem to insult as their first line of defense, when a disagreement arises.
Tololy: “I don’t think it’s OK to stereotype anyone. In fact, my blog is all about fighting stereotypes and I think you can see for yourself how I loathe generalizations and stereotypes. Look into my archives and you will see that I have repeatedly fought them.”
I have never seen you defend ME from your Arab commenters and tehir stereotyping, Tololy. As an American, or as a Protestant Christian. Not once. All I can say is, you may not be aware of it. People often aren’t, especially when they are associate almost exclusivively with people who have grown up thinking those stereotypes are correct and “true”.
Ahriman, the comment you brag about being so unobjectionable was full of religious bigotry. I have nothing to say to you. You are one of the people I’m talking about.
Now, I’ll follow Tololy’s lead and bow out of this thread as well, since I’m having so many problems with Firefox, of this blog software, or both!
PS-Thanks for your comments, Mohanned and Kinzi :)
April 6th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
[...] cafes, Hareega wonders if cyber-activism in the Arab world is even worth it any more. Meanwhile, Tololy criticizes an article on the “Arab” blogosphere, which focuses only on Egyptian [...]
April 6th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
[...] cafes, Hareega wonders if cyber-activism in the Arab world is even worth it any more. Meanwhile, Tololy criticizes an article on the “Arab” blogosphere, which focuses only on Egyptian [...]
April 6th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
I can name a few you insulted and called names apart from me , you threatened Jordan with annihilation, a country, with your Hukabee, you denounced catholics and the Pope not mention most Arabs and muslims and Jordan’s christians. Don’t talk about civilized, and you are still at it
“”"That is indeed what I am talking about, Tololy. Most Jordanian blog commenters seem to insult as their first line of defense, when a disagreement arises.”"”
April 6th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
[...] تولولي[إنكليزي] من الأردن: “وجدت مقال يناقش التدوين في [...]
April 17th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
I think blogs has nothing to do with this, it’s related to how Westerners receive the Egyptian, Jordanian or any other Arab Country’s Culture, and may be their awareness of the part of the World
Jordan is a great country, and I’ve visited it recently and was really impressed by the quality and the quantity of development there, and I believe they’ve got the will to compete with Dubai as a business hub in the region. I also like the Jordanian blogosphere, especially that many of the bloggers there into graphics and web development. But let’s face it, how many Americans have ever heard about Jordan compared to those used to study the ancient Egyptian history in School. I guess Jordan for them may mean Michael Jordan. the Cinema and Music industry are dominated by Egyptians (or Lebanese), and for sure this is helping in promoting the Egyptian/Lebanese culture as a whole including the Egyptian/Lebanese blogosphere.
Iraq was almost obscure five years ago, and I believe they got the attention of that researcher because of the American occupation of that Country.
I am sure it’s that researcher who is to be blamed for his/her ignorance of that part of the world. But also, Jordanians and other Arab countries living in the shadow have to exert more efforts in order to market their cultural products and their countries as a whole.